NBC receives mail from shooter

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Danzig,this is the state of condition that the mental health system in this country is in.They have plenty of excuses........ don't they? Fact is they see these sick folks walk out the door,and into the streets.Do they follow up? No."The laws are bad" O.K.well who do you think should be trying to change them? Maybe the same people that see these sick ones walk out the door? We get to see these sick folks when they do something like this.Mental Health workers etc. see these people everyday. So,this is the 1st part of the problem.Psychiatrists don't get paid for improving patients.I don't know how they are judged,but it isn't that way.My guess is if they get patients mentally stable(at all)then they call it success.These are simply the most overpaid people on Earth.The goal is never to get people well.The goal is to get people out of the office in 15 minutes.That's the "professionals" we are talking about here.Seriously,these are the least talented doctors of the bunch(CHECKS FOR FREE.)Traditionally,this country has always been focused on the ideal of being rich.Since that is the focus,it means you will also have many working poor,and these people make it much tougher to spot (and help) mentally ill people.They would be much more obvious to spot in countries that value a basic standard of living(and a basic level of health care.)Honestly,this country does a pss poor job at treating the mentally ill,and sometimes it REALLY SHOWS.This is one of those times.In this country,the mentally ill will be told to exercise more,and eat better.I'm serious.This is the extent of knowledge the average person has about mental illness.Then you have people that think you can treat major mental illness by talking it over.Well,next time you get a tumor try talking it over with somebody.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Danzig,this is the state of condition that the mental health system in this country is in.They have plenty of excuses........ don't they? Fact is they see these sick folks walk out the door,and into the streets.Do they follow up? No."The laws are bad" O.K.well who do you think should be trying to change them? Maybe the same people that see these sick ones walk out the door? We get to see these sick folks when they do something like this.Mental Health workers etc. see these people everyday. So,this is the 1st part of the problem.Psychiatrists don't get paid for improving patients.I don't know how they are judged,but it isn't that way.My guess is if they get patients mentally stable(at all)then they call it success.These are simply the most overpaid people on Earth.The goal is never to get people well.The goal is to get people out of the office in 15 minutes.That's the "professionals" we are talking about here.Seriously,these are the least talented doctors of the bunch(CHECKS FOR FREE.)Traditionally,this country has always been focused on the ideal of being rich.Since that is the focus,it means you will also have many working poor,and these people make it much tougher to spot (and help) mentally ill people.They would be much more obvious to spot in countries that value a basic standard of living(and a basic level of health care.)Honestly,this country does a pss poor job at treating the mentally ill,and sometimes it REALLY SHOWS.This is one of those times.In this country,the mentally ill will be told to exercise more,and eat better.I'm serious.This is the extent of knowledge the average person has about mental illness.Then you have people that think you can treat major mental illness by talking it over.Well,next time you get a tumor try talking it over with somebody.

Scuds, Stick to attacking me with your idiotic comments, you will get support there but when you open your mouth about mental health, you really show your ignorance. Have you ever worked with the mentally ill? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Of course not! Psychiatrists are brilliant and dedicated people who work long hours under the most difficult of conditions...they work with at risk people and one mistake can result in death, the burden they carry is something a self-centered fool like you can never appreciate. Most mental health professionals are in fact underpaid and under-appreciated, my staff were required to have a college degree yet were paid $10 an hour...laborers get that much and more! You have no understanding of the legal situation nor the lack of funding that makes services non-existent for so many. I've seen thousands..yes, thousands of people who have been given back their lives by mental health professionals. When you make your stupid little remarks about me, I simply laugh them off but for someone without a clue to degrade the hard work of folks who actually dedicate their lives to helping others is a crime. Tell me Scuds, in your entire pathetic life, what have you done to help other people?

[Danzig]

somer, just because you do your job, and are good at it, does not mean ALL psychiatrists are! don't take it personally, or get defensive, when questions are asked! like the joke says, what do you call the guy who graduated last in his class at medical school? doctor!

i was asking questions, as are a lot of people. i didn't claim to know everything, nor did i bash psychology as tom cruise did. so thanks for answering my thoughts, and questions--you helped a whole lot.

there were so many red flags thrown by this guy over the years--i just don't understand what it takes. he was on anti-depressants, so obviously under someone's care. and if roommates, laymen--can see this guy had a problem, why didn't the professionals?? THAT is what i'm asking.

[Danzig]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070420/...AAb4_pGlFH2ocA


seems when the judge found cho mentally defective, he only sent him for outpatient treatment, he was not committed to an institution-so there was no state law demanding the ruling be reported, which would have barred sale of the guns. i'd imagine the virginia ledge will be taking this under advisement, and that a change will be made.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Danzig

somer, just because you do your job, and are good at it, does not mean ALL psychiatrists are! don't take it personally, or get defensive, when questions are asked! like the joke says, what do you call the guy who graduated last in his class at medical school? doctor!

i was asking questions, as are a lot of people. i didn't claim to know everything, nor did i bash psychology as tom cruise did. so thanks for answering my thoughts, and questions--you helped a whole lot.

there were so many red flags thrown by this guy over the years--i just don't understand what it takes. he was on anti-depressants, so obviously under someone's care. and if roommates, laymen--can see this guy had a problem, why didn't the professionals?? THAT is what i'm asking.

Mrs Z, I never get personally upset, you should know that by now. I wasn't offended by your post, only pointing out that you don't know the field nor the legal aspects well enough to be critical of MH staff. I'm the first to agree that major changes in how we treat MH patients is a must! As your next post indicates, apparently the judge never committed the boy...again, if he admitted himself then we can't hold him UNLESS he's actively suicidal or homicidal...since a year passed since he was treated, obviously that was not the case. Now Scuds...I tire of his attacks, when it me...no problem, I ignore him BUT MH professionals don't deserve his ignorant invective!

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Mrs Z, I never get personally upset, you should know that by now. I wasn't offended by your post, only pointing out that you don't know the field nor the legal aspects well enough to be critical of MH staff. I'm the first to agree that major changes in how we treat MH patients is a must! As your next post indicates, apparently the judge never committed the boy...again, if he admitted himself then we can't hold him UNLESS he's actively suicidal or homicidal...since a year passed since he was treated, obviously that was not the case. Now Scuds...I tire of his attacks, when it me...no problem, I ignore him BUT MH professionals don't deserve his ignorant invective!

Somer,
Please do me a favor.
Type something into the "Scandal d'Jour" thread.
It doesn't seem to come up to the top (I wonder why).
Maybe if there's a response besides me, it will come up.
Thanks.
DTS

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Mrs Z, I never get personally upset, you should know that by now. I wasn't offended by your post, only pointing out that you don't know the field nor the legal aspects well enough to be critical of MH staff. I'm the first to agree that major changes in how we treat MH patients is a must! As your next post indicates, apparently the judge never committed the boy...again, if he admitted himself then we can't hold him UNLESS he's actively suicidal or homicidal...since a year passed since he was treated, obviously that was not the case. Now Scuds...I tire of his attacks, when it me...no problem, I ignore him BUT MH professionals don't deserve his ignorant invective!

that's why i wrote that post, i don't understand how things happened, unfolded as they did....of course things are becoming a bit clearer..

thing is, i'm not so sure that anyone can answer why this all happened. he seems to have been evil, pure and simple. why? i don't know. why do a lot of crazed killers do what they do, why did hitler do what he did? we'll never know.
it's human nature to want to solve every puzzle-i think we feel more powerful if we can answer questions. but we can't always do so. at least not in a very satisfying way.

i just wish they hadn't aired so much of his video, etc. copycats are my concern, i know there have already been some arrests of others country-wide who have threatened to do similar--or worse!

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Danzig

that's why i wrote that post, i don't understand how things happened, unfolded as they did....of course things are becoming a bit clearer..

thing is, i'm not so sure that anyone can answer why this all happened. he seems to have been evil, pure and simple. why? i don't know. why do a lot of crazed killers do what they do, why did hitler do what he did? we'll never know.
it's human nature to want to solve every puzzle-i think we feel more powerful if we can answer questions. but we can't always do so. at least not in a very satisfying way.

i just wish they hadn't aired so much of his video, etc. copycats are my concern, i know there have already been some arrests of others country-wide who have threatened to do similar--or worse!

Yeah, this is a largely rural area of Pa where I live, in this morning's paper, a local high school had a bomb threat and a local college likewise just yesterday. There will be copycat incidents, and the beginning and end of the school year is historically when most incidents occur. There is no easy answer...certainly we need more MH services, more early intervention with kids experiencing difficulties with socialization, fewer hours spent playing violent video games at the expense of making friends and feeling a part of the world....we need a fairer society where hopelessness and helplessness are replaced by hope for a better life. All sounds simple but how do we do it? The media and so many folks simply look for blame after a tragic event occurs...the time to stop these horrible events is BEFORE they happen...instead of focusing on revenge and "justice" for criminals, we should look to prevent crime...that can never be accomplished by events that occur afterwards!

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

You simply don't know what you are talking about...nor do many of the TV talking heads. There is a legal process to commit someone...the paperwork which they speak of is simply part of said process. If you read (and comprehend) my earlier post, I tried to make it clear...you can't hospitalize someone against their will without certain legal criteria being met, and hospital personnel must obey the law like everyone else...if the law says they must be discharged then there is no choice! Reporters, unless they have a background in MH, don't understand this...obviously, you don't either! As a MH professional, I have done paperwork to hospitalize patients, worked with MH patients in the hospital, and worked with the legal system regarding all aspects of hospitalization. With the confidentiality laws in place today, it is quite possible that his parents had no idea concerning the extent of his psychosis, same with the school!

Somer is absolutely correct. It is nearly impossible to have someone commmitted to a mental hospital. It doesn't matter how crazy they are. A psychitarist has no legal authority to commit someone to a mental institute. The only way someone can be committed is if the person is an immiminent threat to himself or others. That means that the person would have to be making verbal threats of an imminent nature. In other words, they would have to say that they were going to either kill themselves or kill someone else to be held. Otherwise, the person cannot be held.

With regard to the two girls that he was bothering, there is no evidence that he did anything that could have given him a felony conviction. He was bothering these two girls, but there is no evidence that he threathened them in any way. He was told to leave them alone and he did. There was no felony committed.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

SOMER,GO AHEAD AND GET PERSONAL.Did I mention your name.I spoke generally about the mental health situation in this country.You give excuse after excuse,and try to change the subject to me etc.,but when it is all said and done,the worst Doctors in this country are Psychiatrists.They can't judge them on how well they do at getting people better.Why? Too few of them are good.IF THEY WERE WORTH A DAMN,Tom Cruise would never be able to say what he does.The fact is that these "professionals" generally do not get results,and if they did ,then people wouldn't wonder if Psychiatry works at all.Right now,it's a damn good question.For the most part,Psychiatrists in this country are getting paid without producing results.This field,and politics are the 2 fields that you don't have to get results in (to get paid.) You can say what you want about me,but the mental health industry in this country is pathetic.Simply pathetic.If you have an ill family member,or friend,you will see this too.For the typical mental health patient in this country,do you know how they test? They f'n don't.They ask the patient questions.Patient can say whatever they want to say about what is going on with them.That's the level of testing going on here.O.K...We are f'n talkin' paper cup n' string here.Then they start trying meds on them,and they don't usually do a damn thing,and usually make them worse.Then,after a while the Psychiatrist says we tried it all.You fkd up beyond repair.You are stable.That's enough.O.K.,HOW MANY ACTUAL DIAGNOSTIC TESTS HAVE I MENTIONED???.......That's right.......zero.........nada.

[GenuineRisk]

With the exception of serial killers, child molesters, and a few others, I'm reluctant to call someone "evil," especially someone clearly exhibiting mental illness. And mental illness is a tough thing- I think there's a fallacy in thinking mental illnesses are "curable." I think some are treatable, or controllable, but I think most are probably not curable. And it's hard to force someone to take medication or go to therapy. I've had manic-depressive friends who start taking medication, become very high-functioning, lovely people, and then stop taking it because they don't feel they need it, or they prefer the way they felt before. I want to shake them and say, "How can you not see how much the medication was helping? What's wrong with you?" But they just don't process the world the way I do.

So I don't know- I guess it's human nature to want right away to find someone to blame, and figure out what the "lesson" from the experience is, but sometimes I think terrible, awful things happen because they do. Which is horrible, and breaks hearts and leaves people behind to grieve and wonder why. And it leaves us feeling out of control of our world, which is scary. Is there a purpose or meaning behind it? Maybe; I don't know. But I don't think it was because this kid was evil. Messed up, without a doubt. But not evil.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

With the exception of serial killers, child molesters, and a few others, I'm reluctant to call someone "evil," especially someone clearly exhibiting mental illness. And mental illness is a tough thing- I think there's a fallacy in thinking mental illnesses are "curable." I think some are treatable, or controllable, but I think most are probably not curable. And it's hard to force someone to take medication or go to therapy. I've had manic-depressive friends who start taking medication, become very high-functioning, lovely people, and then stop taking it because they don't feel they need it, or they prefer the way they felt before. I want to shake them and say, "How can you not see how much the medication was helping? What's wrong with you?" But they just don't process the world the way I do.

So I don't know- I guess it's human nature to want right away to find someone to blame, and figure out what the "lesson" from the experience is, but sometimes I think terrible, awful things happen because they do. Which is horrible, and breaks hearts and leaves people behind to grieve and wonder why. And it leaves us feeling out of control of our world, which is scary. Is there a purpose or meaning behind it? Maybe; I don't know. But I don't think it was because this kid was evil. Messed up, without a doubt. But not evil.

O.K.,then just let nurses do it.If they don't help people very much(and I think in the great majority of cases they do not get results,)then put the doctors to use doing something else.Why have them riding a desk and giving out useless meds? A good nurse can do this......Right? Like I said ,they don't get results,but get paid like other doctors (that actually get something done.)

[Cajungator26]

Well, how do we know for a fact that this kid wasn't evil? Just playing devil's advocate here.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Well, how do we know for a fact that this kid wasn't evil? Just playing devil's advocate here.

For the most part,what you call evil people(PSYCHPATHS,OR SOCIOPATHS) are highly manipulative individuals.They certainly do talk to people.They manipulate the hell out of them..Be great if they were shy.

[Danzig]

if evil doesn't apply to someone who cold-bloodedly shoots down people, killing 32, then i don't suppose it would apply to anyone. i'd say knowing about his writing, his garbage he put together that morning and sent to nbc--well, i feel comfortable calling that evil-just like ted bundy was evil.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Danzig

if evil doesn't apply to someone who cold-bloodedly shoots down people, killing 32, then i don't suppose it would apply to anyone. i'd say knowing about his writing, his garbage he put together that morning and sent to nbc--well, i feel comfortable calling that evil-just like ted bundy was evil.

Kinda how I saw it too, Deb... I'm not a psychiatrist, though.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Still can't believe this guy was able to buy those hollow point bullets(legally.)

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Still can't believe this guy was able to buy those hollow point bullets(legally.)

That's because we live in a state that "equipment" is hard to come by!

[Antitrust32]

whats the difference between a hollow point bullet and a regular bullet? anyone know? are they harder to buy?

[timmgirvan]

hollow points used to be called "cop-killers". The hollows hit the target and spread out through the target, thus doing more damage!