Belmont the Fall Championship Meet

[Gander]

I guess it all depends on how many of these 3 show up and actually run in the BC. There are so many circumstances if one of these 3 should not win.

We still have to see how these 3 do in their next races. Then it will become a little clearer on what happens if a surprise horse jumps up and wins the BC.

Tim,
Don't you see the problem? What if one of em doesnt win? Then what?
Thats the problem Tim, older horses spend the year ducking each other because thats whats smart. WHy would Invasor or Lava have shipped this year to meet each other when they could stay home and win grade ones. Suppose they run 6th and 7th in the BC, it happens Tim. Speed duels, injuries, bad rides, not liking the track, etc.
Thats the rub. How you decide which horse was better if they both don't fire when they meet? The cup encourages only year end meetings between horses, and often times their form isnt the same as it was earlier in the year.
It deprives fans and racetracks from good all year round matchups.

Racing was much better off before the Breeders Cup, thats the bottom line.

The slogan should be "Racings championship Day that's turned great days all year long into mediocre ones!!!"

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Tim,
Don't you see the problem? What if one of em doesnt win? Then what?
Thats the problem Tim, older horses spend the year ducking each other because thats whats smart. WHy would Invasor or Lava have shipped this year to meet each other when they could stay home and win grade ones. Suppose they run 6th and 7th in the BC, it happens Tim. Speed duels, injuries, bad rides, not liking the track, etc.
Thats the rub. How you decide which horse was better if they both don't fire when they meet? The cup encourages only year end meetings between horses, and often times their form isnt the same as it was earlier in the year.
It deprives fans and racetracks from good all year round matchups.

Wouldnt you say race grading also has something to do with the ducking? I have always said that the races should be graded AFTER they have been run or not at all. Too many phoney graded stake races out there.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Racing was much better off before the Breeders Cup, thats the bottom line.

The slogan should be "Racings championship Day that's turned great days all year long into mediocre ones!!!"

I cant we both agree on this Oracle. I have been saying for years that the Breeders Cup is bad for racing. In theory it is a great idea. But it has taken a whole different look than its intention.

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Wouldnt you say race grading also has something to do with the ducking? I have always said that the races should be graded AFTER they have been run or not at all. Too many phoney graded stake races out there.

Well there is too many Graded Races in my opinion. Here is a list of Grade I's for 2006 for males 3 year old and up at a distance longer than 1 mile.

Belmont
Breeders Cup Classic
Cigar Mile
Clark Handicap
Donn Handicap
Florida Derby
Haskell
Hollywood Gold Cup
Jockey Club Gold Cup
Kentucky Derby
Metropolitan
Pacific Classic
Pimlico Speical
Preakness
Santa Anita Derby
Santa Anita Handicap
Stephen Foster
Suburban
Toyota Bluegrass Stakes
Travers
Whitney
Wood Memorial
Woodward Stakes

23 Grade I Stakes. That is insane.

I was at Belmont in 2003 to see Mineshaft; I thought I was in an echo chamber. The attendance is sad; even a star like Mineshaft did not bring them in that day. I hope Bernardini does better, but I doubt it. The gamblers need only place a bet; they do not need to see the horses. It is a sad state of affairs.

[Siena 16]

Right again Oracle, for those of us who follow this great game 365 days a year. the Fall meet at Belmont is a 33 day extension of all the hard work we did at Saratoga. who cares what they call it, lets just continue to cash tickets, But what's really great about Fall Belmont is racing five days a week.

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by oracle80

agreed, but if one of em doesnt?

Wouldn't it be funny if someone like Lawyer Ron just went out there and stroked them all on BC day?

Johnny McKee would be hanging on for dear life...

[Slewbopper]

Originally Posted by Bold Reasoning

Mineshaft's Eclipse was the exception to the rule. His dominance was not ignored.

Same with Holy Bull.

Taking nothing away from John Henry, who sat on the sidelines for the '84 BC, but Slew O Gold pretty much got screwed out of HOY after a brilliant campaign winning the Whitney, Marlboro, Woodward, and JCGC by losing a controversial Classic IN California. Had Wild Again been taken down, SOG would have been HOY. If I recall SOG and John were tied in the voting and some tie breaker was used to give John HOY

With Belmont the closest track to me, I truly miss the fall championship series. There used to actually be fans at Belmont on big days other than the Stakes prior to the BC. Anyway, BC day is the best day of racing all year, bar none.

Originally Posted by Slewbopper

Same with Holy Bull.

Taking nothing away from John Henry, who sat on the sidelines for the '84 BC, but Slew O Gold pretty much got screwed out of HOY after a brilliant campaign winning the Whitney, Marlboro, Woodward, and JCGC by losing a controversial Classic IN California. Had Wild Again been taken down, SOG would have been HOY. If I recall SOG and John were tied in the voting and some tie breaker was used to give John HOY

With Belmont the closest track to me, I truly miss the fall championship series. There used to actually be fans at Belmont on big days other than the Stakes prior to the BC. Anyway, BC day is the best day of racing all year, bar none.

Slewbopper,
I know that the Breeders Cup is here to stay, so the whole conversation/debate is moot. But I think its done more to harm racing than any other innovation in recent times.
The reason we can't generate a fan base that is consistent from June-February, is that we give people no reason to be fans.
People like rivalries, always have and always will. Baseball is a 162 game tedious and long season. Its hard to get worked up about any single game within that span. yet, when the Yankees and red sox play, people tune in. WHy? because of the rivalry of course.
College football is the same way.
In the good old days of my youth, rivalries existed because the only way to win a championship was to beat most of your opponents all year more times than they beat you.
The Breeders Cup was a great idea in theory. A year end celebration of racing that would move from place to place in order to expose more fans to racing.
But what its done is create a voting system for champions that ignores the rest of the years accomplishments and in the process has destroyed the stature of many races. Trainers no longer wanna hook up with the main rival in the year, they play dodgeball, and who can blame them? Its crippled the product all year long and I just don't think that one fantastic day is worth all that.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Slewbopper,
I know that the Breeders Cup is here to stay, so the whole conversation/debate is moot. But I think its done more to harm racing than any other innovation in recent times.
The reason we can't generate a fan base that is consistent from June-February, is that we give people no reason to be fans.
People like rivalries, always have and always will. Baseball is a 162 game tedious and long season. Its hard to get worked up about any single game within that span. yet, when the Yankees and red sox play, people tune in. WHy? because of the rivalry of course.
College football is the same way.
In the good old days of my youth, rivalries existed because the only way to win a championship was to beat most of your opponents all year more times than they beat you.
The Breeders Cup was a great idea in theory. A year end celebration of racing that would move from place to place in order to expose more fans to racing.
But what its done is create a voting system for champions that ignores the rest of the years accomplishments and in the process has destroyed the stature of many races. Trainers no longer wanna hook up with the main rival in the year, they play dodgeball, and who can blame them? Its crippled the product all year long and I just don't think that one fantastic day is worth all that.

Okay, I follow but this is how I figure things ...

1. BC Classic Win = HoY = Top Stud Value.
2. BC Classic Purse = $5 Mil = 5x (!!) Value of any other NA Grade 1

So, if you run 3rd in the BCC, the owner gets as much as if he won the JCGC or the Pac Classic. PLUS, you get huge "extra credit" toward the HoY if you win.

To me that's why they all point to the BCC. It's the $$. It's hard to believe that $1 Mil is seen as "change" but it is compared to the BCC and that's the problem. Why the heck the purse is so very high is beyond my understanding.

[Slewbopper]

Oracle: The Breeders Cup was a great idea in theory. A year end celebration of racing that would move from place to place in order to expose more fans to racing.
But what its done is create a voting system for champions that ignores the rest of the years accomplishments and in the process has destroyed the stature of many races. Trainers no longer wanna hook up with the main rival in the year, they play dodgeball, and who can blame them? Its crippled the product all year long and I just don't think that one fantastic day is worth all that.
----------------------------------------------------------------

You are absolutely right on all accounts. The BC has destroyed the the handicap TC of the Met Mile, Suburban, and Brooklyn. It caused Philip Morris to bow out of the Marlboro Hcp. Many establ;ished G1 races have been shortened to accomadate the BC. The only 1 1/2 mile dirt race left in America is the archaic Belmont Stakes which is run at that distance for tradition only.

I am sure that all of us that were following the game at the inception of the BC thought it was a wonderful thing. In retrospect what has happened, is, as you said, we are waiting around all year for one day while one time meaningful races run throughout the year are nothing more than a means to this end.

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Okay, I follow but this is how I figure things ...

1. BC Classic Win = HoY = Top Stud Value.
2. BC Classic Purse = $5 Mil = 5x (!!) Value of any other NA Grade 1

So, if you run 3rd in the BCC, the owner gets as much as if he won the JCGC or the Pac Classic. PLUS, you get huge "extra credit" toward the HoY if you win.

To me that's why they all point to the BCC. It's the $$. It's hard to believe that $1 Mil is seen as "change" but it is compared to the BCC and that's the problem. Why the heck the purse is so very high is beyond my understanding.

Stud,
Its not the purse money my friend. Its the chance at residual value for being a champion.
Purse money, even 5 or 6 mill, doesnt even put a dent in what a horse is worth if its a champion.
Look at the Dubai World cup. 6 mill and now noone will send a good horse over there. Why? because they know that they will come back with a spent horse and no shot to be champ. Purse money is not gonna match a 20 mill or 10 mill stud deal.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Slewbopper,
I know that the Breeders Cup is here to stay, so the whole conversation/debate is moot. But I think its done more to harm racing than any other innovation in recent times.
The reason we can't generate a fan base that is consistent from June-February, is that we give people no reason to be fans.
People like rivalries, always have and always will. Baseball is a 162 game tedious and long season. Its hard to get worked up about any single game within that span. yet, when the Yankees and red sox play, people tune in. WHy? because of the rivalry of course.
College football is the same way.
In the good old days of my youth, rivalries existed because the only way to win a championship was to beat most of your opponents all year more times than they beat you.
The Breeders Cup was a great idea in theory. A year end celebration of racing that would move from place to place in order to expose more fans to racing.
But what its done is create a voting system for champions that ignores the rest of the years accomplishments and in the process has destroyed the stature of many races. Trainers no longer wanna hook up with the main rival in the year, they play dodgeball, and who can blame them? Its crippled the product all year long and I just don't think that one fantastic day is worth all that.

I agree that rivalries create interest, but when horses run 5-6 times a year, they are not going to meet enough times to create the kind of rivalry that will captivate new fans. The BC may have had a small impact on the number of races a horse runs in a year, but I don't think it is the source of all evil that you make it out to be. Horses just aren't running as often, and they are not running as long. It's hard to have a rivalry when the very best horses retire as 3-yr-olds.

Red Sox fans tune in because they have rooted for that team for years. Ohio State fans tune in because they know they will meet Michigan yet again this year. But if there are Bernardini fans out there, they know (if they are smart) that there is less than a 25% chance that they will get to root for Bernardini this time next year.

Without a BC, we would still have had no more than one chance this year to see Lava Man face either Invasor or Bernardini. Maybe no chances.

I agree with your point that the BC gets too much emphasis at Eclipse time. However, I don't remember being personally outraged at any picks because of the BC factor. (I WOULD have thrown a fit if Leroidanimeax had been denied an Eclipse because of his BC loss, though.) Are there any Eclipse winners that you thought were particularly poor choices (because of over-emphasis on a BC win/loss)?

--Dunbar

[Gander]

I think we are long past the days of rivalries in horse racing, unless you are like me and love claimers, allowance and small restricted stakes. They seem to evoke the only real rivalries in the game.

Take for instance Dave, Certifiably Crazy, Pa Pa Da and Golden Commander, who seem to meet at least once a month. Or Finlandia, Lamp is Lit, Sabellina, On the Bus and Lady Bi Bi. Those are some good ones.

In high level raing we can kiss real rivalries goodbye. The sport will neve be able to measure up to baseball or college basketball in terms of rivalries and attachment to certain horses, like we have with teams.

Seems just when you get attached to a 3 year old, he/she is retiring or injured. Thank God for horses like Lava Man, Tin Man, Captain Squire, Funny Cide, and Caller One.

[Cannon Shell]

One of the biggest problems with the Breeders cup is that unlike the Derby you dont have to actually do anything to qualify for the races. Sure you have to be a good horse but outside of the Turf mile or Sprint, the races rarely overfill. I know people flame the Derby system of Graded earning but at least it forces trainers to compete in order to earn enough to qualify.

[Cannon Shell]

Another reason that rivalries dont exist is that the same small group of trainers train all the good horses. Think of the 2yo races you could have if you matched up the Pletcher and Blasmussen barns alone.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Another reason that rivalries dont exist is that the same small group of trainers train all the good horses. Think of the 2yo races you could have if you matched up the Pletcher and Blasmussen barns alone.

'blassmusen'--I like that...@ the very least when they do happen to run against each other they should be uncoupled...unlike in the hopeful.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

I agree that rivalries create interest, but when horses run 5-6 times a year, they are not going to meet enough times to create the kind of rivalry that will captivate new fans. The BC may have had a small impact on the number of races a horse runs in a year, but I don't think it is the source of all evil that you make it out to be. Horses just aren't running as often, and they are not running as long. It's hard to have a rivalry when the very best horses retire as 3-yr-olds.

Red Sox fans tune in because they have rooted for that team for years. Ohio State fans tune in because they know they will meet Michigan yet again this year. But if there are Bernardini fans out there, they know (if they are smart) that there is less than a 25% chance that they will get to root for Bernardini this time next year.

Without a BC, we would still have had no more than one chance this year to see Lava Man face either Invasor or Bernardini. Maybe no chances.

I agree with your point that the BC gets too much emphasis at Eclipse time. However, I don't remember being personally outraged at any picks because of the BC factor. (I WOULD have thrown a fit if Leroidanimeax had been denied an Eclipse because of his BC loss, though.) Are there any Eclipse winners that you thought were particularly poor choices (because of over-emphasis on a BC win/loss)?

--Dunbar

I thought speightstown over Pico Central was a terrible choice. Pico Central not only won bigger races, he dominated when the two met head to head.