For all the Big Brown Boneheads

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Just curious to how people feel. If Big Brown were to win the Belmont by 20 lengths in 2:29 3/5, how would you feel afterwards? Glad to finally have a TC winner or extremely upset that it had to happen this way?

Guess it all really depends on what his Beyer is!!

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Just curious to how people feel. If Big Brown were to win the Belmont by 20 lengths in 2:29 3/5, how would you feel afterwards? Glad to finally have a TC winner or extremely upset that it had to happen this way?

How I feel would probably depend on who runs second.

I am just looking forward to the race. If he wins, that'll be great and I could care less who his owner is or that his trainer has had more suspensions than most.

I also won't care that 95% of the experts will say he beat nothing. They all said the same thing about Seattle Slew. If Brown wins the race and people don't take time to appreciate the accomplishment, then they can wallow in their overly self-righteous indignations. Then they can wait another 30 or 100 years for the next undefeated TC winner to come along.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

How I feel would probably depend on who runs second.

I am just looking forward to the race. If he wins, that'll be great and I could care less who his owner is or that his trainer has had more suspensions than most.

I also won't care that 95% of the experts will say he beat nothing. They all said the same thing about Seattle Slew. If Brown wins the race and people don't take time to appreciate the accomplishment, then they can wallow in their overly self-righteous indignations. Then they can wait another 30 or 100 years for the next undefeated TC winner to come along.

You act as though real racing fans are disappointed year after year that there is no TC winner....let alone an undefeated one. Real racing fans know what a truly special horse is and are excited by seeing it race. Sorry, but real racing fans are disheartened by horses that are retired before having the opportunity to show how good they may actually be.

When Big Brown takes on Curlin in the Fall and even runs a close second I will applaud him. Until then, barring a sensational performance, I will pass on accepting his accomplishments as remarkable. He is nothing more than a very nice horse beating up on mediocrities. Nothing wrong with that and I wish there were more of his kind around. However, pardon me if I don't get goose bumps when he romps over 7 overmatched, and at best moderately talented, rivals.

[Payson Dave]

The horse has done everything that has been asked of him and has overcome some serious adversity in the process....winning from the outside at Gulfstream was something that he supposedly was not going to do...winning the KD from post 20 in his 4th lifetime start was supposedly something that he was not gonna do...coming back on 2 weeks rest in the Preakness was possibly going to be his undoing... I realy believe that more than a few are unable to put aside their dislike for Dutrow and/or IEAH and give the horse appropriate credit.
... also, being juiced does not explain his performances cause if BB is being juiced with something illegal and undetectable then it seems pretty damn likely that he would not be the only one on that juice...
oh and I guarantee ya there were a few boneheads that thought that the red colt of Lucien Laurens was good enough to beat Onion a few years back

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Payson Dave

The horse has done everything that has been asked of him and has overcome some serious adversity in the process....winning from the outside at Gulfstream was something that he supposedly was not going to do...winning the KD from post 20 in his 5th lifetime start was supposedly something that he was not gonna do...coming back on 2 weeks rest in the Preakness was possibly going to be his undoing... I realy believe that more than a few are unable to put aside their dislike for Dutrow and/or IEAH and give the horse appropriate credit.
... also, being juiced does not explain his performances cause if BB is being juiced with something illegal and undetectable then it seems pretty damn likely that he would not be the only one on that juice...

He's a very good horse Dave. There's no denying that. However, in the pantheon of TC winners he is nothing special. Silver Charm could have done exactly what Big Brown has done, and then some, and he was hardly revered in the manner of this horse. Yes, I am comparing him to some pretty heady company, and that is a compliment to Big Brown, but let's stop pretending he is something he has so far proven not to be.

Bottom line for me is that he would have been no better than third in last year's Preakness.

[fpsoxfan]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

For all of you convinced this is some sort of superhorse, please fork over $31.50 and buy this:

http://www.amazon.com/Champions-Perf...1429919&sr=1-3

I promise it will be the best $31.50 you ever spend. For anyone else on here that doesn't have this but might not be drinking the Big Brown brainwashing brew it is a steal for $31.50.

Oh My. I don't need to buy the book to cheer for him on June 7th.

[Hickory Hill Hoff]

Originally Posted by fpsoxfan

Oh My. I don't need to buy the book to cheer for him on June 7th.

I guess you'll get the book after the race and still have $8.50 left.....
all kidding aside, it's a great book to have, I have the first edition and at this price it's a steal.
As far as BIG Brown, it's still 16 days to go to the race.....anything can happen...Pat, don't count on the wager just yet!

[TheSpyder]

It will be hard, if not impossible, to compare any horse in the 21st century to those before them because the dynamics of the game have changed.

It is doubtful we will see any horse with a great record make it to their 4YO campaign because of breeding.

So Big Brown is an example of the "new" landscape.

As a comparision it's like college basketball players retiring and never playing in the pros.

So how will we know greatness over a short career with the horses only youngster? We may never unless we change the way we define greatness.

To go back to the college basketball analogy, Micheal Jordon really wasn't that great in college.

That being said, Champions may be a collection of horses and records that will never be seen again, this year or in the future. Our only hope, to be honest, would be a horse that has been cut. Kind of funny to thing the only real chance for greatness is a horse that gives up the chance to reproduce. Chance for Greatness = weannie off

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by TheSpyder

It will be hard, if not impossible, to compare any horse in the 21st century to those before them because the dynamics of the game have changed.

It is doubtful we will see any horse with a great record make it to their 4YO campaign because of breeding.

So Big Brown is an example of the "new" landscape.

As a comparision it's like college basketball players retiring and never playing in the pros.

So how will we know greatness over a short career with the horses only youngster? We may never unless we change the way we define greatness.

To go back to the college basketball analogy, Micheal Jordon really wasn't that great in college.

That being said, Champions may be a collection of horses and records that will never be seen again, this year or in the future. Our only hope, to be honest, would be a horse that has been cut. Kind of funny to thing the only real chance for greatness is a horse that gives up the chance to reproduce. Chance for Greatness = weannie off

ugh


seriously tho, i suggested a few months ago that if you wouldn't still be talking about the horse in 20 years, he's not great. man o war ran and retired before 1920-people still use him as a measuring stick. citation won the tc 55 years ago, and is still spoken of with reverence. secretariat, 35 years since he ran-we still wonder if we'll see something like him again.
you come back in 20 years and mention big brown-people will either say 'who?' or will say 'oh yeah, big brown. worst tc winner ever. but at least i got to see a tc win'. why? time will bring clarity, and lessen the emotions you're seeing right now.

[Antitrust32]

I'm kinda getting ticked at all you boneheads that wont shut up about comparing bb to horses who ran 30 years ago and not enjoy what we have now.

No s hit he's not going to race as often as the past great horses, thats just the way it is, but he's fast, he's awesome and if he wins the Belmont in a couple weeks he'll be great.

Is there nothing that can make a horse racing fan happy??

[TheSpyder]

That's really my point. In the next 20 years do you think we'll see any greatness the way it was defined in the past? How? Horses will retire after 8-10 races and go to stud.

Man o' War was 20 for 21. Of course he was great as were the others you mentioned. I just think the game has changed where we won't see horses get to prove they are great. Maybe Big Brown wins the TC but maybe he would be better as a 4YO - 5YO but we won't find out with him or any 3YO from now on, unless for some reason they are gelded.

Maybe he's great, maybe he's not but you can't say in 6-7 races and that's all you'll get.

IF he wins the TC, 20 years from now he'll be remembered only because chances are it will not happen again or if it does, it will be very limited. He will be great because in the new world order we can only define these horses on limited running

Originally Posted by Danzig

ugh


seriously tho, i suggested a few months ago that if you wouldn't still be talking about the horse in 20 years, he's not great. man o war ran and retired before 1920-people still use him as a measuring stick. citation won the tc 55 years ago, and is still spoken of with reverence. secretariat, 35 years since he ran-we still wonder if we'll see something like him again.
you come back in 20 years and mention big brown-people will either say 'who?' or will say 'oh yeah, big brown. worst tc winner ever. but at least i got to see a tc win'. why? time will bring clarity, and lessen the emotions you're seeing right now.

[RollerDoc]

Apologies to Danzig for this post that I am now editing out.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by TheSpyder

To go back to the college basketball analogy, Micheal Jordon really wasn't that great in college.

Um.. Michael Jordan was ACC Freshman of the Year in '82, and won four different national Player of the Year awards in '84, including a little something called the Wooden Award.. Maybe Micheal Jordon sucked, but that other guy was pretty great in college, I'd say.

[TheSpyder]

My point was not that he was bad, just that he got so much better in his career as a pro.

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Um.. Michael Jordan was ACC Freshman of the Year in '82, and won four different national Player of the Year awards in '84, including a little something called the Wooden Award.. Maybe Micheal Jordon sucked, but that other guy was pretty great in college, I'd say.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Um.. Michael Jordan was ACC Freshman of the Year in '82, and won four different national Player of the Year awards in '84, including a little something called the Wooden Award.. Maybe Micheal Jordon sucked, but that other guy was pretty great in college, I'd say.

Maybe he was thinking of the guy who played at Penn

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by TheSpyder

It will be hard, if not impossible, to compare any horse in the 21st century to those before them because the dynamics of the game have changed.

It is doubtful we will see any horse with a great record make it to their 4YO campaign because of breeding.

So Big Brown is an example of the "new" landscape.

I agree and I also believe this will be the death of horse racing. To have a sensational horse ran 8 times TOPS is a travesty. One of the great things about super horses of yesteryear was how many times we got to see them run.

Best example I can give is Funny Cide. Couldn't stand the horse at 3 and was stunned he won the Derby. Bet against him every chance I got. However, when he was still racing in 2006, I actually tuned in to see him run because it was a novelty. I was actually rooting for him.

The game will disappear if horses continue to retire immediately after a great accomplishment.

[justindew]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

The game will disappear if horses continue to retire immediately after a great accomplishment.

I wonder what would happen to the sport if we got rid of the Breeders' Cup, and if buyers like Godolphin and Coolmore stopped going to auctions.

And if drugs were banned, or reduced.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

The game will disappear if horses continue to retire immediately after a great accomplishment.

Nothing could be further from reality.

[fpsoxfan]

Originally Posted by Hickory Hill Hoff

I guess you'll get the book after the race and still have $8.50 left.....
all kidding aside, it's a great book to have, I have the first edition and at this price it's a steal.
As far as BIG Brown, it's still 16 days to go to the race.....anything can happen...Pat, don't count on the wager just yet!

Being very careful not to "Hanifin" myself. So my lips are sealed. The one thing that would be nice would be sunny and 80 with no wind on the deck.

[fpsoxfan]

The beauty of this whole thing is how Big Brown is perceived by the general public. We can hash this out all day long because many people on here love the game, know the game, and have a great appreciation for its history.

Enter average sports fan. Since the Preakness I've been asked by many of my teaching and umpiring colleagues, friends, students, etc. what I think about Big Brown. It's interesting to see the excitement that this horse has generated among the general public. We can hash this out all we want to, just like baseball enthusiast would compare players from past to present, but it's the people who think that Silver Charm is an anniversary gift that this story is reaching out to and they are grabbing it.


So, where am I going with this? For the first time in quite a while, we have a horse, like him or not who is putting horse racing on the map. It's the first time in 21 years of following this game that I've seen this much interest from the casual fan. Let's run with it!