Lava Man

[Port Conway Lane]

If Lava Man gets his rest and comes back at 7 next year and wins a restricted Calbred stake I'll be impressed.Time catches up with them all and I have a hunch he's seen his best days. When he finally does retire he'll have left his legacy as the best gelding of the decade,perhaps the last two.He's truly a memorable racehorse.

[geeker2]

Who remembers Catfish Hunter in his final outings - that slider looked like an oversized grapefruit hanging on a branch - it was just painful to watch... as a fan..that's the way I feel when I now see Lava Man "run".. I am trusting that owners & trainer will do the right thing.

[Bobby Fischer]

it was really special that he won the Gold Cup again this year even though it was switched to polytrack.

The dubai trip pointlessly threw him into another situation where he was totally outclassed by the field. It was a high class field trip for the connections.

So close to running him in the classic this would be tough for any horse to hold form.

Lava Man is a rare horse that you can pointlessly run him in the BC or Dubai and he bounces back time and again. This is the most positive indicator that he can still be useful in 2008.

He came back with such a brilliant run in the Whittingham. He showed he still has it.


The synthetic-turf surfaces are just too difficult for Lava Man. He won the Gold Cup edging a weary A.P Xcellent only because of the weak field, his class, the amazing form from the Whittingham and he hadn't yet been conditioned to quit.


The Pacific Classic effectively ended his 2007 campaign. They tried to make the horse run 10 furlongs on an extreme surface. Took a lot out of him and for the first time in quite a while in Cali he was asked to do something beyond his scope.

Lava Man runs near the pace and then strikes the front on the turn. No one wins that way on synthetic-turf. Even in the best form of his life he wouldn't win consistently on these surfaces. On the fast-cushion track at Santa Anita you get 3 or 4 sprinters up on a hot pace for the heart of the race , and then 5 or 6 turf horses all make a run in the stretch. On the Del Mar surface the stretch seems to slant up-hill as 10 furlong dirt horses struggle and strain to climb a mountain of pedigree and stamina. This is "extreme" racing. Only horseracing would run "Xtreme racing" and not profit from it on a cheesy espn show...


Since he can't ship away from the synthetic-turf his only hope now is to look for soft spots on the real turf. Obviously he shouldn't be placed in 1 mile races against classy horses. 9 and 10 furlongs vs. moderate california competition is his remaining option. Races where he can be a controlling speed and his style will actually benefit. The best move would be patience (skipping the tempting Sun Million Turf).

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by geeker2

Who remembers Catfish Hunter in his final outings - that slider looked like an oversized grapefruit hanging on a branch - it was just painful to watch... as a fan..that's the way I feel when I now see Lava Man "run".. I am trusting that owners & trainer will do the right thing.

by the same token, you have brett favre who so many thought was done or past it. having a hell of a year.

too many people are too quick to throw in the towel on some of these horses. he's a special horse, and very special to his connections. they won't put him in a bad position. i think he just needs a break. a lot of people thought he was done after the japan cup fiasco. he took a break, and came back to have his best year.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

it was really special that he won the Gold Cup again this year even though it was switched to polytrack.


The Pacific Classic effectively ended his 2007 campaign. They tried to make the horse run 10 furlongs on an extreme surface. Took a lot out of him and for the first time in quite a while in Cali he was asked to do something beyond his scope.

Lava Man runs near the pace and then strikes the front on the turn. No one wins that way on synthetic-turf. Even in the best form of his life he wouldn't win consistently on these surfaces. On the fast-cushion track at Santa Anita you get 3 or 4 sprinters up on a hot pace for the heart of the race , and then 5 or 6 turf horses all make a run in the stretch. On the Del Mar surface the stretch seems to slant up-hill as 10 furlong dirt horses struggle and strain to climb a mountain of pedigree and stamina. This is "extreme" racing. Only horseracing would run "Xtreme racing" and not profit from it on a cheesy espn show...


Since he can't ship away from the synthetic-turf his only hope now is to look for soft spots on the real turf. Obviously he shouldn't be placed in 1 mile races against classy horses. 9 and 10 furlongs vs. moderate california competition is his remaining option. Races where he can be a controlling speed and his style will actually benefit. The best move would be patience (skipping the tempting Sun Million Turf).

The Gold Cup was not on polytrack, it was cushion track.

Your description of the racing at SA (no one winning from near the pace, sprinters getting overtaken by turf horses) is not accurate at all. just look at yesterdays route races.
Runforthemoneybaby, no turf experience and came from two lengths behind
RomanceisDiane, no turf experience and wins wire to wire.
Sierra Sunset, no turf experience and raced within a length of the pace.
Bold Chieftain, some turf background, came from 3 lengths back.

I don't think Lava Mans issues have a lot to do with the synthetics, just look at his turf race in the Oak Tree mile, that was also a subpar effort, at least as bad as his Pac Classic, maybe worse. With the form he had last year and early this year he would have crushed the field yesterday, even on cushion track.

[hemaih]

As the greatest claim in racing history Lava Man should continue to run until he earns more then Tiznow. Currently Lava Man is about 1 million dollars away from being the leading California earner of all time. He has been great for the sport and has no reason to retire in my opinion.

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by hemaih

As the greatest claim in racing history Lava Man should continue to run until he earns more then Tiznow. Currently Lava Man is about 1 million dollars away from being the leading California earner of all time. He has been great for the sport and has no reason to retire in my opinion.

Make that the second greatest claim. Princequillo remains as the greatest.

[Bobby Fischer]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

The Gold Cup was not on polytrack, it was cushion track.

Your description of the racing at SA (no one winning from near the pace, sprinters getting overtaken by turf horses) is not accurate at all. just look at yesterdays route races.
Runforthemoneybaby, no turf experience and came from two lengths behind
RomanceisDiane, no turf experience and wins wire to wire.
Sierra Sunset, no turf experience and raced within a length of the pace.
Bold Chieftain, some turf background, came from 3 lengths back.

I don't think Lava Mans issues have a lot to do with the synthetics, just look at his turf race in the Oak Tree mile, that was also a subpar effort, at least as bad as his Pac Classic, maybe worse. With the form he had last year and early this year he would have crushed the field yesterday, even on cushion track.

thanks I have to proof read lest I will write in a verbal style and call everything "polytrack" as if I was calling a brand of "puffs" tissue a kleenex...

I am familiar with all the major tracks who use synthetic and each of their specific nuances, other than PID(except to note the inflation@PID)


they are all synthetic-turf, that have replaced a main dirt track , and they all have their specific characteristics.

for example a 6furlong wire-to-wire horse at Keeneland can do the same in Arlington , but not necessarily vice versa.

A horse can save ground and win in Hollywood , but in Woodbine he will eat dust(actually clog his trachea with dust).

etc.....

as far as debating that I don't know what I am talking about with Lava Man's specific running style and how well the different synthetic tracks suit it -
- It's up to you to figure that out. I am not going to sit here and convince you that a route on polytrack is averse to Lava Mans style or how a .10 superfecta changes the dynamics of the market. Either you see it one way or another. Either you think one thing or another. It doesn't make me a penny or give me any satisfaction , and 99% of the time it falls on deaf ears. Come to you own conclusions, and it seems like you have an opinion , and I don't wish to challenge your opinion.

If you want to change it into a debate over generalities like "no one wins near the pace" or "turf horses overtake sprinters" it isn't something I am interested in. I am not really interested in any debate period.

The game interests me, I put my time in and I answer my own questions. The internet is a great place where people who love the game, or the sport, or the animals can share their opinions.


back on topic - my opionion is that I feel Lava Man is proven to be resiliant, I think he belongs in moderate class turf routes only. A lot of money for that in California, as Graded races or big purses are at times "moderate-quality". Give him 2-3 months and a nuclear scan and bring him back in 2008.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

thanks I have to proof read lest I will write in a verbal style and call everything "polytrack" as if I was calling a brand of "puffs" tissue a kleenex...

I am familiar with all the major tracks who use synthetic and each of their specific nuances, other than PID(except to note the inflation@PID)


they are all synthetic-turf, that have replaced a main dirt track , and they all have their specific characteristics.

for example a 6furlong wire-to-wire horse at Keeneland can do the same in Arlington , but not necessarily vice versa.

A horse can save ground and win in Hollywood , but in Woodbine he will eat dust(actually clog his trachea with dust).

etc.....

as far as debating that I don't know what I am talking about with Lava Man's specific running style and how well the different synthetic tracks suit it -
- It's up to you to figure that out. I am not going to sit here and convince you that a route on polytrack is averse to Lava Mans style or how a .10 superfecta changes the dynamics of the market. Either you see it one way or another. Either you think one thing or another. It doesn't make me a penny or give me any satisfaction , and 99% of the time it falls on deaf ears. Come to you own conclusions, and it seems like you have an opinion , and I don't wish to challenge your opinion.

If you want to change it into a debate over generalities like "no one wins near the pace" or "turf horses overtake sprinters" it isn't something I am interested in. I am not really interested in any debate period.

The game interests me, I put my time in and I answer my own questions. The internet is a great place where people who love the game, or the sport, or the animals can share their opinions.


back on topic - my opionion is that I feel Lava Man is proven to be resiliant, I think he belongs in moderate class turf routes only. A lot of money for that in California, as Graded races or big purses are at times "moderate-quality". Give him 2-3 months and a nuclear scan and bring him back in 2008.

okay then, wasn't really looking to debate either, just sharing my opinion. I'll never question anything you post again.

Just one thing though, why do you call the surfaces synthetic-turf? I have never heard this term used for anything other than something like artificial grass. not looking to debate but it would seem that these surfaces are synthetic dirt, not turf.

[FGFan]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Maybe he's sick of California!

Maybe he misses his groom....ironic his decline started after his grooms tragic accident. Horses can be creatures of habit.

I hope he gets a good rest and comes back his old self. Doesn't matter to me at all that he only loves to race in Cal.
If not he will always be a very special horse and he earned a great retirement.
I don't believe his owners would ever put him in for a claim, maybe optional claiming and not put a tag on him, but I believe they will stand by this horse.
I will always be a Lava Man fan.

[azerica]

I too hope to see him out of the claim game. He has a big fan base. It would break my heart to see him downgraded. After a good rest, just see if he bounces back. If not...I'm thinking lead pony...at least he will still be in track atmosphere.

[Bobby Fischer]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Just one thing though, why do you call the surfaces synthetic-turf? I have never heard this term used for anything other than something like artificial grass. not looking to debate but it would seem that these surfaces are synthetic dirt, not turf.

If the super market starts selling "Orange flavored drink" in a milk carton in your local dairy section,
Is it synthetic-milk or synthetic-orangeJuice ??

There is no right answer, but the PC answer is "as long as it reduces your lactose intolerance I am all for it".

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

Make that the second greatest claim. Princequillo remains as the greatest.

Better than Stymie? He was claimed for $1500 and became the leading money-earner of all time US, just under $1 million, and it took Citation to best him in that category.

[my miss storm cat]

http://www.ctba.com/08magazine/feb/IndustryInsight.pdf

[gamblin4ever]

Thanks for posting that mmsc. Hope he comes back as good as ever.

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by gamblin4ever

Thanks for posting that mmsc. Hope he comes back as good as ever.

Hope so too.