Strong Contender

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Sweetness

Yeah I knew that, but thanks teach for the lesson. He has been out on his own for 10 years. But while we are at it, any coincidence that during Lukas golden run, he had Pletcher, McLaughlin, Stewart, and so on and so on as his assistants. These guys are among the best now, so that must be noted.

Dallas Stewart is among the best now?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Hoisttheflag

Baffert was a jockey, you don't pay your dues better than that. I am not anti-pletcher, but you guys are like professional ass kissers. There are entire threads to how great he is because he won with a bunch of horses, one being 1-9. The guy continues to fail to win the big ones. 0 for 51 is not some coincidence. Calling him the modern day silver fox is nonsense.

well, i'm not one who has ever come on here gushing over the guy, i just take exception to your opinion that only a classic win makes a top trainer. you'd get that from me regardless of trainer mentioned. boy, you like to paint a wide group with your brush, don't you?

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Dallas Stewart is among the best now?

Won the Oaks this year, and is a damn good trainer. 18% on the year, not too shabby in my opinion.

[SentToStud]

Money won and Eclipse Awards count too, last time I looked.

Originally Posted by Danzig188

well, i'm not one who has ever come on here gushing over the guy, i just take exception to your opinion that only a classic win makes a top trainer. you'd get that from me regardless of trainer mentioned. boy, you like to paint a wide group with your brush, don't you?

They are all really good trainers, including Pletcher, but Baffert and Lukas never went 0-51 in the most important races of the year. They dominated those races. Their percentages are incredible. Pletcher is excellent but he has excellent horse flesh. I think Frankel is excellent too but until he won with Empire Maker and then the BC Classic it was hard to put him in there with Baffert and Lukas. Pletcher might get there but he isn't the modern day silver fox.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Sweetness

Won the Oaks this year, and is a damn good trainer. 18% on the year, not too shabby in my opinion.

He's an OK trainer who has probably underachieved with the stock he has gotten. I'm not knocking him but saying he is " one of the best " is absurd.

Originally Posted by Hoisttheflag

Had to be the owners in my opinion but the Pletcher ass kissing on this site is ridiculous. Win a Classic race before we start making him out to be Lukas or Baffert.

I have to agree with this statement...I like the dude and think he's one helluva horseman, but why all the priase?...With the horseflesh he gets year-in and year-out he arguably is just doing average with his stock...I'm not saying he's doing poorly, but give any other good horseman his stock and see how well they would do with it....It's not like he has two or three Classic victories...he didn't even win a BC race until 2004.....he's a good trainer - make no mistake about it....but to praise him for being a dynamite conditioner may be like Jor Torre for being a great baseball coach...you better be half decent when yoour owners surround you with the best talent in the game...the thing I respect about him is his political abilities...he has somehow lured in the Jones, Overbrook, Padua, the Melnyks, Coolmore, WinStar and many other top owners - which is amazing to me....If I was a big-time owner I would probably want to be the lone big fish in the pond but instead he has found a way to marry running of of these nice horses from different big-time operations without conflict of playing favorites, etc.....that is what I most admire about the guy to be honest...He wil win a classic and probably multiple Classics, but how couldn't you with that stock?

Leroy Jolley won Classics, Jack Van Berg won Classics, and Bill Turner won Classics.....just goes to show that anybody is dangerous with good horses....

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He's an OK trainer who has probably underachieved with the stock he has gotten. I'm not knocking him but saying he is " one of the best " is absurd.

I think he is better than ok, and he hasn't really underachieved, but great trainers overachieve. Win the derby with a $17,000 purchase or do something like that. Pletcher is a great organizer and horseman but he seems to lack that little extra Lukas and Baffert had/have.

Originally Posted by Hoisttheflag

They are all really good trainers, including Pletcher, but Baffert and Lukas never went 0-51 in the most important races of the year. They dominated those races. Their percentages are incredible. Pletcher is excellent but he has excellent horse flesh. I think Frankel is excellent too but until he won with Empire Maker and then the BC Classic it was hard to put him in there with Baffert and Lukas. Pletcher might get there but he isn't the modern day silver fox.

I just don't think that the triple crown are the most important races of the year. They only deal with 3 year olds, and as you know that leaves out every other category there is. Pletcher's horse flesh is no different than Lukas and Baffert had, or Frankel for that matter.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Hoisttheflag

I think he is better than ok, and he hasn't really underachieved, but great trainers overachieve. Win the derby with a $17,000 purchase or do something like that. Pletcher is a great organizer and horseman but he seems to lack that little extra Lukas and Baffert had/have.

I was referring to Dallas Stewart.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He's an OK trainer who has probably underachieved with the stock he has gotten. I'm not knocking him but saying he is " one of the best " is absurd.

I agree and I personally like Dallas..............

[blackthroatedwind]

I personally like him as well.

But hey, some of my best friends are failures

Not that he is a failure by any means. But, a lot of my friends.....

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

He's an OK trainer who has probably underachieved with the stock he has gotten. I'm not knocking him but saying he is " one of the best " is absurd.

Okat let me ask you this what do you think of Shug McGaughey? Because no one has been blessed with more blue bloods then this man. Dallas is a hell of a guy, and a fine trainer.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Sweetness

Okat let me ask you this what do you think of Shug McGaughey? Because no one has been blessed with more blue bloods then this man. Dallas is a hell of a guy, and a fine trainer.

Shug? As fine a trainer as there has ever been...and unlike a lot of trainers ( without naming names )....he doesn't cheat. The guy was great even before training all those champions for the Phipps. Vanlandingham anyone?

As for Dallas being a " hell of a guy "...in my minimal interaction with him I couldn't agree more. " Fine trainer "? Debatable but I guess he's OK. However...please retract the " one of the best " comments. He isn't and has no results to back that up.

Originally Posted by Sweetness

Okat let me ask you this what do you think of Shug McGaughey? Because no one has been blessed with more blue bloods then this man. Dallas is a hell of a guy, and a fine trainer.

He doesnt win very often(dallas, not shug) at the highest level. He won the Oaks this year but seriously, he has 3 lifetime grade one wins, never has trained a champ, and has been on his own for 9 years now which is just not all that special when you consider the stock he has had. You trying to tell me that a guy who is on his own for 9 years and has 3 grade one wins and no champs with all those nice horses is a "great" trainer, geez, I don't get that at all.

And Shug is on of the sport's all time greats, and I agree with everything Blackthroat said about him.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Shug? As fine a trainer as there has ever been...and unlike a lot of trainers ( without naming names )....he doesn't cheat. The guy was great even before training all those champions for the Phipps. Vanlandingham anyone?

As for Dallas being a " hell of a guy "...in my minimal interaction with him I couldn't agree more. " Fine trainer "? Debatable but I guess he's OK. However...please retract the " one of the best " comments. He isn't and has no results to back that up.

I actually said among the best, and would you disagree that Pletcher and McLaughlin aren't? Come on Kieran got that "classic" win. But while you bash Todd, with the flesh Shug gets, I would expect better results.

Originally Posted by oracle80

He doesnt win very often(dallas, not shug) at the highest level. He won the Oaks this year but seriously, he has 3 lifetime grade one wins, never has trained a champ, and has been on his own for 9 years now which is just not all that special when you consider the stock he has had. You trying to tell me that a guy who is on his own for 9 years and has 3 grade one wins and no champs with all those nice horses is a "great" trainer, geez, I don't get that at all.

Never said he was great but was making the point that he was instumental in Lukas's success, ask D. Wayne. I think Shug has underachieved, because he is blessed year in and year out with the best flesh on the planet.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Sweetness

I actually said among the best, and would you disagree that Pletcher and McLaughlin aren't? Come on Kieran got that "classic" win. But while you bash Todd, with the flesh Shug gets, I would expect better results.

Shug has had remarkable results.

If you are going to continue to insist that Dallas Stewart is " among the best " I am taking my ball and going home. Just say you were overzealous and get it over with.

I like Kiaran, he is a great guy, and he does a very good job. Among the best? I don't even think he would agree with that. But he certainly gets the job done and I can imagine anyone would be more than happy if he was their trainer.

By the way, I never " bashed " Pletcher and never would.

Originally Posted by Sweetness

I actually said among the best, and would you disagree that Pletcher and McLaughlin aren't? Come on Kieran got that "classic" win. But while you bash Todd, with the flesh Shug gets, I would expect better results.

Dallas is most definitely not among the best. Better results from Shug? Are you kidding me?
Well lets see, ahem, EIGHT CHAMPIONS!!!!! for starters(you defend dallas who has NONE), 2nd all time with Breeders Cup wins to only D wayne, Lord knows how many grade ones.
And hey, Blackthroat may get a kick out of this, on a fall day at Belmont Park
in 1993 Shug McGaughey won as many grade one races as Dallas Stewart has won in his career. Umm, are we about done with this argument now?