8/25 (SAR): Travers, King's Bishop, Test (G1's), Ballston Spa (G3)

[pmayjr]

For the Travers being really weak, the Kings Bishop field is pretty nice. Trinniberg, Currency Swap, Dr Chit... Not bad

[RockHardTen1985]

Kings Bishop is great. Ill try beating Trinniberg again. Failed at that on Belmont day, but the pace sceniro figures to be different in here. Speed inside and outside of him, I think he is in trouble. Not in love with Currency Swap either, but ill use him at least. My main 3 will be Gun Boat who is working great. His last is a total toss, so I look at this as a cutback and I love a cutback. Ill use Ever So Lucky who I admit has been a total disapointment, but if he is any horse at all he will show it in here on the cutback. And Unbridleds Note who I thought had a bit of a sneaky trip last time when the rider was unable to get him in the clear. Never got outside for the stretch run. Maybe he sits 5th or 6th in here from the outside and runs late. 10- 1 or so on a lightly raced horse who I think has a little talent is worth it to me.

[pba1817]

Nonios will romp in the Travers.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by pba1817

Nonios will romp in the Travers.

He made a few runs at Paynter, and I feel Paynter would crush this field. So if your looking at it like that, I get it. I still feel he is a cut below the top 2. Even though he was second to Paynter, he was still not even close to beating him. I'm not sold on him, 2nd tier comes to mind when looking at his pps.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by pba1817

Nonios will romp in the Travers.

I just feel CD form translates better at Toga than Mth form.

[PatCummings]

How it is possible to be disappointed in the Travers field is beyond me considering what is left out there. Will another 3yo only stake get 11 like this rest of year? The vast majority of top 3yos are injured, retired, or given time off, and they still get 11, even with the late entrants, one of whom insures no one Little Mike's the race. I'd be disappointed in the fragility of top 3yoz that are trained by Baffert and Pletcher and the like. When people complain that next years Wood or Florida Derby aren't great, maybe it will help you get better quality in the Travers field.

I hope someone keeps track of all these Pletcher 2yo winners and reports back in 9 months.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

How it is possible to be disappointed in the Travers field is beyond me considering what is left out there. Will another 3yo only stake get 11 like this rest of year? The vast majority of top 3yos are injured, retired, or given time off, and they still get 11, even with the late entrants, one of whom insures no one Little Mike's the race. I'd be disappointed in the fragility of top 3yoz that are trained by Baffert and Pletcher and the like. When people complain that next years Wood or Florida Derby aren't great, maybe it will help you get better quality in the Travers field.

I hope someone keeps track of all these Pletcher 2yo winners and reports back in 9 months.

Pat really? How can you defend that field. Sometimes its best to keep quiet and have people think you are a NYRA schill then open your mouth and remove all doubts. Your best strategy in this sitaution is to point out how great the other 3 races in the P4 came up.

[tywizard]

Originally Posted by jms62

Pat really? How can you defend that field. Sometimes its best to keep quiet and have people think you are a NYRA schill then open your mouth and remove all doubts. Your best strategy in this sitaution is to point out how great the other 3 races in the P4 came up.

I don't understand how the Travers field can be questioned either. If you're complaining about the field it implies that you believe there are horses that are not running - who are they?

Put differently, you can complain or more accurately, be disappointed with tge quality of our remaining three year olds (due to injuries) - But you have to realize that is a very different argument.

Also, from a betting standpoint this seems like a very good group - meaning that this field has more opportunities than a field with a 4/5 Paynter. Unless of course you were against him (silly).

[jms62]

Originally Posted by tywizard

I don't understand how the Travers field can be questioned either. If you're complaining about the field it implies that you believe there are horses that are not running - who are they?

Put differently, you can complain or more accurately, be disappointed with tge quality of our remaining three year olds (due to injuries) - But you have to realize that is a very different argument.

Also, from a betting standpoint this seems like a very good group - meaning that this field has more opportunities than a field with a 4/5 Paynter. Unless of course you were against him (silly).

Who said i am complaining? I am stating the obvious that the field is not that good. How it got that way is not relevent. I am taking exception to Pat's constant defense of any critiscm leveled of any NY race or card out of hand. Maybe a better tact would be that it is what it is due to the decimation of the crop but at least it is a better betting race. If you need to have caveats when defending the quality of a race then you basically made the case of those saying that the quality is not on par with previous years. Good betting race, YES good Travers field NO.

1-Speightcity
2/7 MSW,N1X
0-3 Graded
0-1 Grade 1 9th beaten 11 1/2
2-FiveSixteen
1/8 MSW
0-1 Grade 1 5th beaten 10th
3-Golden Ticket
1/9 MSW
0-2 Graded
4-Stealcase
2/9 MSW, N1X
0-4 Graded
0-1 G1 3rd beaten 8.5
5-Streetlife
3/7 MSW, Stk-100 Stk-100
0/6 Graded
0/2 G1 4 7-1/2. 6-7 1/2
6-Alpha
4/8 MSW, Stk, G3, G2
2/6 Graded
0/4 G1
7-Atigun
3/11 MSW, N1X, N2X
0/5 Graded
0/2 G1 2-2, 11-9 1/2
8-Neck'n Neck
3/11 MSW, N1X, G3
1/5 Graded
0/1 Grade 1 5-4 1/2
9-Liason
3/11 MSW, Stk 100, G1
Graded 1/8
G1 1/3 6-7, 6-9 1/2. Win
10-Nonios
3/6 MSW, N1X, G3
Graded 1/3
G1 0/1 w 3 3/4
11 Fast Falcon
1/6 MSW
0/2 Graded


Combined Graded 5/45
Combined Grade 1 1/16
Combined 2012 Grade 1 0/13

[RockHardTen1985]

Big field does not equal good betting race. This is not a good betting race. The 2 most likely winners will be 9-5 and 3-1. Or close to those odds.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by jms62

Pat really? How can you defend that field. Sometimes its best to keep quiet and have people think you are a NYRA schill then open your mouth and remove all doubts. Your best strategy in this sitaution is to point out how great the other 3 races in the P4 came up.

Your being way to harsh. Other then Paynter, who else could have entered?

[jms62]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Your being way to harsh. Other then Paynter, who else could have entered?

See my above post hopefully it clarifies my thoughts.

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by jms62

Pat really? How can you defend that field. Sometimes its best to keep quiet and have people think you are a NYRA schill then open your mouth and remove all doubts. Your best strategy in this sitaution is to point out how great the other 3 races in the P4 came up.

I'm far from a NYRA shill. I'm an optimist, and think that a bad day at the track beats a good day almost anywhere else, but more so at Saratoga than just about anywhere.

There are 11 horses in a G1 3YO race in a season that has been completely decimated by injuries, retirements, and basically, average horses - and a bunch of that coming in the last two months. It could be a six horse field and an awful betting race. It isn't.

The winners of the following races are either retired or on extended breaks:
BC Juvenile, Delta Jackpot, Remsen, Gulfstream Park Derby, Sham, Lecomte, Holy Bull, Robert Lewis, San Vincente, Southwest (both divisions), Risen Star, Fountain of Youth, Battaglia, Gotham, San Felipe, Rebel, Spiral, Florida Derby, Illinois Derby, Santa Anita Derby, Arkansas Derby, Derby Trial, Kentucky Derby, Preakness, Peter Pan, Belmont...

Sure, some of those races above are repeats.

Paynter, who is completely hyped after the Haskell win and the mysterious illness, has a single graded stakes win to his name.

What exactly was NYRA going to do to get better quality in this field? They almost got Reddam to bring over a foreigner who was 2nd to the Secretariat winner, Bayrir, but he strained a muscle and missed the race.

This is the game we have. I don't have time for the "back in the day" crowd when everything was always better than the present.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

I'm far from a NYRA shill. I'm an optimist, and think that a bad day at the track beats a good day almost anywhere else, but more so at Saratoga than just about anywhere.

There are 11 horses in a G1 3YO race in a season that has been completely decimated by injuries, retirements, and basically, average horses - and a bunch of that coming in the last two months. It could be a six horse field and an awful betting race. It isn't.

The winners of the following races are either retired or on extended breaks:
BC Juvenile, Delta Jackpot, Remsen, Gulfstream Park Derby, Sham, Lecomte, Holy Bull, Robert Lewis, San Vincente, Southwest (both divisions), Risen Star, Fountain of Youth, Battaglia, Gotham, San Felipe, Rebel, Spiral, Florida Derby, Illinois Derby, Santa Anita Derby, Arkansas Derby, Derby Trial, Kentucky Derby, Preakness, Peter Pan, Belmont...

Sure, some of those races above are repeats.

Paynter, who is completely hyped after the Haskell win and the mysterious illness, has a single graded stakes win to his name.

What exactly was NYRA going to do to get better quality in this field? They almost got Reddam to bring over a foreigner who was 2nd to the Secretariat winner, Bayrir, but he strained a muscle and missed the race.

This is the game we have. I don't have time for the "back in the day" crowd when everything was always better than the present.

I can understand being a "glass if half full" kind of guy but at some point, you have to also realize that it's still half empty. Saying this is the best of what we've got left is not the same as saying it's good. If you put 11 $40k claimers in the field, you'd still have 11 3yos in a grade one race. A competitive race, a good betting race, doesn't make it a good race. If you turn on the men's 100m final at the Olympics and Bolt, Blake, Gatlin, Powell, and Gay are all missing, it's not even worth watching. Sure, the remaining runners could end up in an eight-way dead-heat and it would make for an exciting finish....but the reason we watch sports at the highest level is to see the highest quality. Through no fault of it's own, this race completely lacks it.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I can understand being a "glass if half full" kind of guy but at some point, you have to also realize that it's still half empty. Saying this is the best of what we've got left is not the same as saying it's good. If you put 11 $40k claimers in the field, you'd still have 11 3yos in a grade one race. A competitive race, a good betting race, doesn't make it a good race. If you turn on the men's 100m final at the Olympics and Bolt, Blake, Gatlin, Powell, and Gay are all missing, it's not even worth watching. Sure, the remaining runners could end up in an eight-way dead-heat and it would make for an exciting finish....but the reason we watch sports at the highest level is to see the highest quality. Through no fault of it's own, this race completely lacks it.

This just in....there are very few good horses in modern racing.

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I can understand being a "glass if half full" kind of guy but at some point, you have to also realize that it's still half empty. Saying this is the best of what we've got left is not the same as saying it's good. If you put 11 $40k claimers in the field, you'd still have 11 3yos in a grade one race. A competitive race, a good betting race, doesn't make it a good race. If you turn on the men's 100m final at the Olympics and Bolt, Blake, Gatlin, Powell, and Gay are all missing, it's not even worth watching. Sure, the remaining runners could end up in an eight-way dead-heat and it would make for an exciting finish....but the reason we watch sports at the highest level is to see the highest quality. Through no fault of it's own, this race completely lacks it.

Jennie Rees from the Louisville Courier-Journal has this posted on her blog. "My mantra: There's never a bad Derby, some are just better than others."

Agreed entirely that the race does not have the highest quality. A glance at the PPs makes this indisputable.

The very fact, however, that people bemoan the race because its quality, top to bottom, is lacking, is a function of people looking for something to criticize. I don't think we have any future superstars (edit - in this race), and we certainly have no current stars...

They can't criticize the card, the lack of claiming races, the full fields, and the other good stakes races...leaving this to be the lone critical element...I guess that's why we have message boards. It's tiring and predictable.