The real party of NO, the GOP, steps it up

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Patrick333

Well said..

It's right out of the Reaganomics playbook, and "trickle-down economics" didn't work then, didn't work during Bush II, and won't magically and suddenly work now.

In fact, David Stockmann - Reagans economic adviser, one of the creators of Reaganomics - has been making the rounds, he is completely against extending the tax cut for the rich. And in favor of a long-term extension of unemployment benefits.

[Riot]

Not a done deal yet, but what is being reported this afternoon (and it's nice to see the GOP start to "compromise" for the first time in 2 years, although their compromise essentially lays in seemingly agreeing not to keep beating the shiat out of Obama and keep taking his lunch money). And it is notable that the most important thing to the GOP, the hill they die on, is pleasing the wealthy.

Update: must be done deal, WH announcement at 6:10pm tonight.

That said, the contours of an final package emerged with more detail than ever before. While it's clear that the White House gave in on its main front -- the desire to let the tax levels for the upper-income levels revert to pre-Bush rates -- administration officials claimed that they were able to secure major victories in return.

In exchange for allowing those rates to continue for two years, Republicans agreed to extend unemployment insurance for an additional 13 months, to offer a two-percent employee side payroll tax credit (at a cost of about $120 billion), and $40 billion in tax breaks for families and students (including a $1,000 child tax credit extended for two years and an expansion of the earned income tax credit)

Finally, the final deal would include a 100% expensing for businesses to write off purchases of outdated equipment -- another key element of Obama's fiscal plans. There also would be a compromise on the estate tax, which will be set for two years at 35 percent, with a $5 million exemption amount, according to the Daily Caller, which first reported the arrangement.

Briefing The Huffington Post about the deal, which could be announced as early as Monday night, the two senior administration officials claimed that they were able to get more bang for their buck than previously imagined. The costs for the payroll tax holidays, UI and other refundable credits come in at roughly $215 billion over two years. The extensions of the income tax rates strictly for the wealthy is estimated to cost about $95 billion. All of it is unpaid for. But the former provisions are more stimulative than the latter.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

You're ignoring that the GOP hasn't compromised in 2 years, and the GOP still hasn't compromised one whit, while Obama compromises before negotiations begin, then does it again. Compromise takes two sides. The GOP has yet to step up in two years.

Yes, the left is quite fed up with Obama giving in over and over again to the GOP, and he'll face a progressive primary challenge if he doesn't turn it around.

Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary you continue to promote falsehoods.

The GOP didn't compromise in this deal with the White house? Uh sure they didn't.

Obama has given in to the GOP time and time again? On what exactly?

The liberal mindset is that you aren't compromising unless you are capitulating.

Nothing would be better for the GOP and worse for the Demorats than a primary challenge for Obama from someone MORE liberal than he is.

[Riot]

Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary you continue to promote falsehoods.

Excuse me? I suggest you pay a little more attention to politics on a daily basis. You're obviously clueless as to what the Republicans have been doing - and not doing - for the past two years. You want to know what exactly that is? Try looking at the Senate voting record for the past two years.

You think the GOP has been compromising for two years? You there there is overwhelming evidence of this? BAWAAAHAAAAA Go ahead - produce it.

And you still haven't been able to produce any economists to support your absurd contention that unemployment benefits don't put cash into the economy, don't immediately help the economy, don't prevent loss of jobs (for grocers, etc).

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

Excuse me? I suggest you pay a little more attention to politics on a daily basis. You're obviously clueless as to what the Republicans have been doing - and not doing - for the past two years. You want to know what exactly that is? Try looking at the Senate voting record for the past two years.

You think the GOP has been compromising for two years? BAWAAAHAAAAA

But Obama gives them too much?

So The GOP blocks everything and yet Obama bend over for them?

I guess (if it were true) that the GOP strategy was a good one?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

But Obama gives them too much?

So The GOP blocks everything and yet Obama bend over for them?

I guess (if it were true) that the GOP strategy was a good one?

Yup. That is true, it is exactly what Obama has been doing. He gave away single payer for the health bill, that angered his base, and last week, when he proactively came out and said, before negotiations, that he'd extend all the Bush tax cuts for two years, his base went crazy. Don't forget one of his biggest campaign promises was not to extend that. Period.

BTW, this "deal" Obama made with the Senate may yet fall apart. All tax bills must come first from the House, anyway. Pelosi told Obama that some of her members are definitely not on board. There are GOP senators starting to publically defect on extending the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy, in favor of deficit reduction. The progressive wing of the House wants to hold the line at 1 million for tax cut extensions, period.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

Yup. That is true, it is exactly what Obama has been doing. He gave away single payer for the health bill, that angered his base, and last week, when he proactively came out and said, before negotiations, that he'd extend all the Bush tax cuts for two years, his base went crazy. Don't forget one of his biggest campaign promises was not to extend that. Period.

BTW, this "deal" Obama made with the Senate may yet fall apart. All tax bills must come first from the House, anyway. Pelosi told Obama that some of her members are definitely not on board. There are GOP senators starting to publically defect on extending the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy, in favor of deficit reduction. The progressive wing of the House wants to hold the line at 1 million for tax cut extensions, period.

He gave away single payer? LOL. I guess you forgot that the obamacare debacle passed by a slim margin after buying off the skeptical. Single payer had no chance. Zero.

He said he would pass all the Bush tax ententions last week? Really? Did you see this on a wikileaks cable?

He has broken a lot of campaign promises but that isnt anything new for any politician. They say things to get elected and then once in office do things to stay elected. Hardly a big deal. How is Guantanamo working out?

If this deal doesnt get done it will be squarely on the shoulders of the Democrats. The GOP compromised and there is a fair deal that helps everyone, at least for a little while. Pelosi is a gift to the GOP that keeps on giving. She gave them the last election and is poised to give them the next one too. All in the name of redistribution!!!

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He gave away single payer? LOL. I guess you forgot that the obamacare debacle passed by a slim margin after buying off the skeptical. Single payer had no chance. Zero.

He said he would pass all the Bush tax ententions last week? Really? Did you see this on a wikileaks cable?

He has broken a lot of campaign promises but that isnt anything new for any politician. They say things to get elected and then once in office do things to stay elected. Hardly a big deal. How is Guantanamo working out?

If this deal doesnt get done it will be squarely on the shoulders of the Democrats. The GOP compromised and there is a fair deal that helps everyone, at least for a little while. Pelosi is a gift to the GOP that keeps on giving. She gave them the last election and is poised to give them the next one too. All in the name of redistribution!!!

pelosi = free gop votes..instead of empowering her still[ gutsiest move ive ever seen mav]they should be acting like she was the problem and exile her to
the most limited access possible. but they dont and wont..more free votes for gop..keep up the good work!! lol

[Riot]

He gave away single payer? LOL. I guess you forgot that the obamacare debacle passed by a slim margin after buying off the skeptical. Single payer had no chance. Zero.

Single payer was overwhelmingly supported by 70% of the public at the start of the healthcare debate.

Then the lies started about "death panels".

He said he would pass all the Bush tax ententions last week? Really? Did you see this on a wikileaks cable?

You really don't pay much attention to politics on a daily basis, do you?

Actually it was well before that. Here's the quote from November 6th:

"The White House signaled Wednesday that President Barack Obama is ready to cut a deal on the Bush-era tax cuts — accepting a temporary extension of the cuts for the wealthiest Americans to win renewal of tax breaks for middle-class taxpayers."

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1110/44990.html and elsewhere.

If this deal doesnt get done it will be squarely on the shoulders of the Democrats.

Not in the eyes of his base. We'll see.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

the jack booted thugs at the gop have done it again..you have to admit riot.your in deep trouble and it will only get worse as the jobs forcast thats not faked in some chart becomes more and more in view. people dont have 'hope' and they are sick of 1/2 'change'

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1210/46019.html

i like this one..bush as the us was fed up with him still had more juice than
obama..hmm

[Riot]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

the jack booted thugs at the gop have done it again..you have to admit riot.your in deep trouble and it will only get worse as the jobs forcast thats not faked in some chart becomes more and more in view. people dont have 'hope' and they are sick of 1/2 'change'

I'm not happy at all Obama caved on tax cuts for the rich. What happened to all the deficit hawks on the right, too? The deficit, and the unemployed American, turns out to be far less important than supporting the wealthy for the GOP. Good luck with that in 2012. The left will run a progressive against Obama's weak centrist position in the primaries at this point.

I've watched and supported the GOP for decades. They have failed me again, and again, and again. And the current incarnation of the GOP is a joke of itself. The GOP now is what used to be just the far right crazy wing of the 1980's. They don't even accept social programs that Reagan or Nixon promoted at this point. And their fiscal irresponsibility reached unimaginable new heights during Bush II.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1210/46019.html

i like this one..bush as the us was fed up with him still had more juice than
obama..hmm

Do you like "all" of the article you quote?

Still, Bush’s 51 percent disapproval rating means he’s only one of two U.S. presidents in the past 50 years whose disapproval exceeds approval. The other is Richard Nixon, who resigned in disgrace 36 years ago and whose approval rating stands at 29 percent.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by Riot

I'm not happy at all Obama caved on tax cuts for the rich. What happened to all the deficit hawks on the right, too? The deficit, and the unemployed American, turns out to be far less important than supporting the wealthy for the GOP. Good luck with that in 2012. The left will run a progressive against Obama's weak centrist position in the primaries at this point.

I've watched and supported the GOP for decades. They have failed me again, and again, and again. And the current incarnation of the GOP is a joke of itself. The GOP now is what used to be just the far right crazy wing of the 1980's. They don't even accept social programs that Reagan or Nixon promoted at this point. And their fiscal irresponsibility reached unimaginable new heights during Bush II.

wow did you read what you wrote..the unemployed american may get a new job now..even socalist need jobs at some point..we like to call it ..get off the couch economics.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

wow did you read what you wrote..the unemployed american may get a new job now..even socalist need jobs at some point..we like to call it ..get off the couch economics.

In what fantasy world do you think that extending tax cuts, the same tax cuts that have been present during the loss of 800,000 jobs since 2001 and 2003, will magically create jobs?

"Trickle down economics" didn't work for Reagan (his deficit deepened), they didn't work for Bush, and they are not magically going to work now.

As I said before, even Reagan's economic advisor, Mr. Trickle Down himself David Stockmann, says do NOT increase the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy, it's bad for the economy!

Let's hope there are tons of jobs suddenly created with the next 2 years, for the GOP's sake. Because the sunset on these tax cuts, if passed, will be right in the middle of the election. Actually, we need 4 million jobs right now, because that's who is losing their jobless benefits in December that this "deal" won't cover.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

without calling names..and its hard..if the wealthier people ie small owners dont keep the tax breaks they have there is no way they will hire new or stay at least the way they are..do you agree..

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Riot

In what fantasy world do you think that extending tax cuts, the same tax cuts that have been present during the loss of 800,000 jobs since 2001 and 2003, will magically create jobs?.

I would think revenue is an indicator of jobs.

Ten Myths About the Bush Tax Cuts-and the Facts

Myth #1: Tax revenues remain low.
Fact: Tax revenues are above the historical average, even after the tax cuts.

Myth #2: The Bush tax cuts substantially reduced 2006 revenues and expanded the budget deficit.
Fact: Nearly all of the 2006 budget deficit resulted from additional spending above the baseline.

Myth #3: Supply-side economics assumes that all tax cuts immediately pay for themselves.
Fact: It assumes replenishment of some but not necessarily all lost revenues.

Myth #4: Capital gains tax cuts do not pay for themselves.
Fact: Capital gains tax revenues doubled following the 2003 tax cut.

Myth #5: The Bush tax cuts are to blame for the projected long-term budget deficits.
Fact: Projections show that entitlement costs will dwarf the projected large revenue increases.

Myth #6: Raising tax rates is the best way to raise revenue.
Fact: Tax revenues correlate with economic growth, not tax rates.

Myth #7: Reversing the upper-income tax cuts would raise substantial revenues.
Fact: The low-income tax cuts reduced revenues the most.

Myth #8: Tax cuts help the economy by "putting money in people's pockets."
Fact: Pro-growth tax cuts support incentives for productive behavior.

Myth #9: The Bush tax cuts have not helped the economy.
Fact: The economy responded strongly to the 2003 tax cuts.

Myth #10: The Bush tax cuts were tilted toward the rich.
Fact: The rich are now shouldering even more of the income tax burden.

http://www.heritage.org/research/rep...-bush-tax-cuts

[Riot]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

without calling names..and its hard..if the wealthier people ie small owners dont keep the tax breaks they have there is no way they will hire new or stay at least the way they are..do you agree..

I just googled and searched, and I could not find one economist who said extending the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest would create jobs. I did find where even Dick Cheney says they do not But he's not an economist.

Find me one economist that says this is true, that the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy will create jobs.

I can find 20 that say not to do it. Find me one that says it's a good idea. Go ahead, convince me to change my mind.

Tax cuts that reward putting money in a business owners pocket does not make that person chose to rather invest it into his business. It takes money out of the business. People do not hire more, produce more, make more capital investment until the consumer demand is there, first. They do not do any of that just because they have a little extra money in their pocket. That's a good way to go broke - have more business than you have demand for!

And let's get straight what the "wealthiest" pay in taxes: it averages about 17-18% (because they have deductions and accountants and tax shelters). And the tax cuts for those up to $250K? That is on adjusted gross, not gross. So extending tax cuts up $250 covers people whose gross is up to $300 at least.

----------------------
And this appears to NOT be a done deal in the House:

Rep. Peter Welch (D-Vt.) circulated a letter to his colleagues urging them to oppose the deal on grounds that it is "fiscally irresponsible." Addressed to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), the letter reads as follows:

A staffer for the congressman said that he was sending the letter to all Democratic offices and would be announcing co-signatories likely tomorrow. Opposition to the measure within the halls of Congress is abundantly clear. The Huffington Post's Howard Fineman reported that House Democrats could pose a problem for a potential deal over the weekend. And a "Democratic congressional source" told CNN on Monday that "we won't rubber stamp a deal between the White House and [Senate Minority Leader] Mitch McConnell...we want to make it clear. Don't take our support for granted."

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

Originally Posted by Riot

I just googled and searched, and I could not find one economist who said extending the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest would create jobs. I did find where even Dick Cheney says they do not But he's not an economist.

Find me one economist that says this is true, that the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy will create jobs.

I can find 20 that say not to do it. Find me one that says it's a good idea. Go ahead, convince me to change my mind.

Tax cuts that reward putting money in a business owners pocket does not make that person chose to rather invest it into his business. It takes money out of the business. People do not hire more, produce more, make more capital investment until the consumer demand is there, first. They do not do any of that just because they have a little extra money in their pocket. That's a good way to go broke - have more business than you have demand for!

And let's get straight what the "wealthiest" pay in taxes: it averages about 17-18% (because they have deductions and accountants and tax shelters). And the tax cuts for those up to $250K? That is on adjusted gross, not gross. So extending tax cuts up $250 covers people whose gross is up to $300 at least.

----------------------
And this appears to NOT be a done deal in the House:

ok lets say you are a small busness owner with some of your own money invested. you have 4 employees.and not making head way you keep employee number 4 on because hes loyal shows up on time ect. now if you lose your tax break. what happens.. hes gone period..you down size..in hopes of the big economic bounce back your waiting for..and waiting for..now this owner may make 300k or higher..whats good about this picture.
there arent enough chairs..

[Riot]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

ok lets say you are a small busness owner with some of your own money invested. you have 4 employees.and not making head way you keep employee number 4 on because hes loyal shows up on time ect. now if you lose your tax break. what happens.. hes gone period..you down size..in hopes of the big economic bounce back your waiting for..and waiting for..now this owner may make 300k or higher..whats good about this picture.
there arent enough chairs..

As an experienced small business owner I'll say the mistake in your business scenario above is that it's unrealistic: keeping on one employee too many when "you're not making headway". That's a very bad business decision. You don't run a business as a charity. Losing a small tax break has zero to do with that poorly run business in the example. It was doomed with the much larger expense of an employee the business couldn't afford.

And any owner taking out $300K from a business that "isn't making head way" is a complete moron. "Some" of your own money invested? Try all of it. That's how small businesses work.

Look at this "deal" that Obama has made - first, it is all unfunded. All of it.

Secondly, look at what was important to the GOP: they voted no on tax cuts to the middle class, they voted no on tax cuts for those up to a million, they voted yes only for tax cuts to those millionaires and above. They voted yes for lowering the estate tax from 55% to 35%. Where are the GOP priorities? Not jobs, not deficit reduction, not the unemployed. Only with concerns of the wealthy.

Aside from the above, it's a massive unfunded stimulus bill (payroll tax deductions, unemployment, etc) Now, I've already seen details that say it should generate about 176 billion in stimulus, which is a good, job creating thing.

But the key is "unfunded". Adding to the deficit. The tax cut for those earning over 1 million should be thrown out to help fund this.