The real party of NO, the GOP, steps it up

[Riot]

Grocery stores are not laying people off, the other 85% of Americans will continue to eat. The energy companies and public utilities are not hurting and/or already govt subsidized. Property owners are generally sending a large portion of rent collected to banks. None of those entities produce goods or services that wouldn't continue to be produced regardless.

I'm glad you have your finger on the pulse of hiring data in the grocery business (and utilities) - care to share that?

You don't think a 15% reduction in overall business would hurt the economy in a deep recession? You say "none of those entities produce goods or services that wouldn't continue to be produced regardless"? Seriously? If a town has 10% unemployment (California, Michigan) removing 10% of a grocery store's business isn't going to cause a layoff or few? Cause the grocery to order 10% less food from his suppliers? You honestly think that will not contract the economy in a recession (heck, it would in normal times!)

Can you post one respected economist that says that taking millions off unemployment will not negatively affect the economy? That if the dollars in those unemployment checks are removed during this deep recession the economy will not suffer? I'll wait.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

So you don't think a 15% reduction in overall business would hurt the economy in a deep recession?

Can you post one respected economist that says that taking millions off unemployment will not negatively affect the economy? That if the dollars in those unemployment checks are removed during this deep recession the economy will not suffer? I'll wait.

15% reduction assumes that no one that loses benefits isn't going to accept a lesser job now that the reality of free money has ended.

Plus how how much economic stimulus comes from paying your utility bill or an oil company?

Not much.

[Riot]

15% reduction assumes that no one that loses benefits isn't going to accept a lesser job now that the reality of free money has ended.

Considering there is 1 job for every 5-8 people, I think we can safely say that once most folks lose their unemployment, they will tend to be homeless, without health care, and on food stamps. That costs the government more money.

Plus how how much economic stimulus comes from paying your utility bill or an oil company? Not much.

"Not much?" Wanna quote the figures on that? EVERYBODY buys food, heat, gasoline, telephone, electricity, etc. The basic necessities are just that.

If you think the economy thrives on 58" plasma TV purchases, you're wrong.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

Considering there is 1 job for every 5-8 people, I think we can safely say that once most folks lose their unemployment, they will tend to be homeless, without health care, and on food stamps. That costs the government more money.



"Not much?" Wanna quote the figures on that? EVERYBODY buys food, heat, gasoline, telephone, electricity, etc. The basic necessities are just that.

If you think the economy thrives on 58" plasma TV purchases, you're wrong.

If there was 1 job for every 5 people on unemployment then wouldnt cutting benefits immediately cut unemployment 20%? Well using numbers they way you do it would but in reality it doesnt work this way.

Again, how much economic stimulus is derived from paying your utility bill?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

If there was 1 job for every 5 people on unemployment then wouldnt cutting benefits immediately cut unemployment 20%? Well using numbers they way you do it would but in reality it doesnt work this way.

What silly nonsense you spout - nobody, including myself, thinks that tossing people off the unemployment rolls (hiding one's eyes and failing to count them) decreases unemployment.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

What silly nonsense you spout - nobody, including myself, thinks that tossing people off the unemployment rolls (hiding one's eyes and failing to count them) decreases unemployment.

Well of course it does. Unless you are stating that you think every person receiving benefits is looking unsucessfully for a job. Are you saying that?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Well of course it does.
?

No, Chuck, tossing people off unemployment and not counting them doesn't change how many people are unemployed, it only changes how many you can see to count.

That's why the "real" numbers of unemployment are higher than reported, always, as Scuds already said.

[Riot]

Again, how much economic stimulus is derived from paying your utility bill?

You're the one making the argument, against the figures I posted, that the answer is little to none. Go ahead, support your argument, post us some proof.

Again: Can you post one respected economist that says that taking millions off unemployment will not negatively affect the economy? That if the dollars in those unemployment checks are removed during this deep recession the economy will not suffer? Can you post an economists differing opinion that unemployment dollars do not directly help the economy with a cash infusion during recession, and prevent layoffs, etc?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

You're the one making the argument, against the figures I posted, that the answer is little to none. Go ahead, support your argument, post us some proof.

Again: Can you post one respected economist that says that taking millions off unemployment will not negatively affect the economy? That if the dollars in those unemployment checks are removed during this deep recession the economy will not suffer? Can you post an economists differing opinion that unemployment dollars do not directly help the economy with a cash infusion during recession, and prevent layoffs, etc?

The argument that you make is always completely misguided. On one hand you say that we should raise taxes which would inhibit economic growth yet on the other hand you tout the economic stimulus of unemployment benefits. It is directly out of the lefty economic redistribution playbook. Yell and scream about how much the drop in the bucket unemployment benefits help but support a huge tax increase at the same time. Sure ANY spending helps but the amount is so small that it is hardly worth talking about when compared to the damage of raising taxes.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The argument that you make is always completely misguided. On one hand you say that we should raise taxes which would inhibit economic growth yet on the other hand you tout the economic stimulus of unemployment benefits. It is directly out of the lefty economic redistribution playbook. Yell and scream about how much the drop in the bucket unemployment benefits help but support a huge tax increase at the same time. Sure ANY spending helps but the amount is so small that it is hardly worth talking about when compared to the damage of raising taxes.

Yak, yak, yak ... You only have one answer, that anyone that doesn't think like you do is misguided. Stop telling me how bad my argument is when you've been asked for support of yours. I've provided some figures to support mine (you've dismissed them out of hand, of course) we are still waiting for yours.

Where is the support for your argument? Change my mind. Go ahead. Show me something from an economist that says that tossing people off unemployment and taking away that cash infusion doesn't harm and slow the economy, and doesn't cause increased joblessness in other industries as that unemployment money is taken out of circulation.

[Patrick333]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The argument that you make is always completely misguided. On one hand you say that we should raise taxes which would inhibit economic growth yet on the other hand you tout the economic stimulus of unemployment benefits. It is directly out of the lefty economic redistribution playbook. Yell and scream about how much the drop in the bucket unemployment benefits help but support a huge tax increase at the same time. Sure ANY spending helps but the amount is so small that it is hardly worth talking about when compared to the damage of raising taxes.

Well said..

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

I'm glad you have your finger on the pulse of hiring data in the grocery business (and utilities) - care to share that?

You don't think a 15% reduction in overall business would hurt the economy in a deep recession? You say "none of those entities produce goods or services that wouldn't continue to be produced regardless"? Seriously? If a town has 10% unemployment (California, Michigan) removing 10% of a grocery store's business isn't going to cause a layoff or few? Cause the grocery to order 10% less food from his suppliers? You honestly think that will not contract the economy in a recession (heck, it would in normal times!)

Can you post one respected economist that says that taking millions off unemployment will not negatively affect the economy? That if the dollars in those unemployment checks are removed during this deep recession the economy will not suffer? I'll wait.

Do you seriously think if business is off 10% that people immediately lose their jobs?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Do you seriously think if business is off 10% that people immediately lose their jobs?

The economists say so. I already posted the below.

I'm still waiting for you to post an economists differing opinion that unemployment dollars do not directly help the economy with a cash infusion during recession, and prevent layoffs, etc. Please do.

This is the sobering conclusion of a report released by the President's Council of Economic Advisers on Thursday. The study forecast that the exhaustion of unemployment benefits for so many will curb spending power enough to significantly impede an already weak economic recovery.

Without an agreement to extend the program, the economy will lose about 600,000 jobs, as the spending enabled by continued unemployment checks ceases.

National economic output--which expanded at an annual pace of 2.5 percent during the summer months--would fall off by 0.6 percent.

That disturbing prospect does not even account for the roughly four million people who would exceed even the extended limits in the emergency program. Were that many jobless people left to fend themselves without unemployment checks, that would pose significant risks for the broader economy, say economists. They cite the fact that consumer spending accounts for roughly 70 percent of all economic activity.

"If you're looking for economic recovery supported by consumers, it's discouraging," said Henry J. Aaron, an economist at the Brookings Institution, a research institution in Washington. "It's drag on the economy."

Many economists argue that paying unemployment benefits is among the most effective ways the government can spur the economy: Jobless people tend to spend nearly all of their unemployment checks, distributing those dollars throughout the economy.

"There's very few things we can spend money on that probably have such an immediate impact on household consumption as unemployment benefits for the long-term unemployed," said Gary Burtless, a former Labor Department economist and now a fellow at Broookings.

More than 6.3 million workers were out of a job for at least 27 weeks in November, comprising nearly 42 percent of all unemployed Americans, according to Labor Department data released Friday.

The Federal Reserve forecasts that the unemployment rate will still be as high as 9 percent this time next year, and about 8 percent at the end of 2012, according to minutes from the central bank's Federal Open Market Committee meeting last month.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

The economists say so. I already posted the below.

I'm still waiting for you to post an economists differing opinion that unemployment dollars do not directly help the economy with a cash infusion during recession, and prevent layoffs, etc. Please do.

It is a politically appointed group. Of course they are going to support their bosses position.

Didn't they also say unemployment would stay under 8% if the stimulus was passed?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

It is a politically appointed group. Of course they are going to support their bosses position.

Except the opinions came out before the bosses position. Ben Bernacke was just interviewed on 60 Minutes, he doesn't agree with you, either.

So please - feel free to post any other economists opinion, supporting that stopping paying unemployment benefits will not slow the economy, increase layoffs, etc.