Zenyatta Has Earned Horse of the Year

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What is the point?

Should equipoise and winstrol still be allowed?
Of course they should. They are horse medications with valid uses. The fact that there was no regulation of them was really the issue. Overreacting and banning them has not seemingly helped horseracing in the least. Of course we can now brag that we banned steroids knowing full well that the people who dont believe the sport is on the up and up still dont believe it. And when your horse is in need of a treatment program, you can now waste money trying substitutes that dont work nearly as effectively, if at all.

Well maybe next time they can expose medications that have no valid uses...the use of perftoran and the like in race horses.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Well maybe next time they can expose medications that have no valid uses...the use of perftoran and the like in race horses.

The difference being that was was legal and one is illegal

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The difference being that was was legal and one is illegal

The problem is whether legal or not some people use whatever they can get their hands on to improve performance...and think that as long as it doesn't test, they are doing nothing wrong. You're a trainer and a smart one...I'm sure you know others who use stuff on their horses and have absolutely no clue as to what it does. Kind of like going back to Dutrow when asked why he gives his horses steroids...he didn't have an answer for the interviewer.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

The problem is whether legal or not some people use whatever they can get their hands on to improve performance...and think that as long as it doesn't test, they are doing nothing wrong. You're a trainer and a smart one...I'm sure you know others who use stuff on their horses and have absolutely no clue as to what it does. Kind of like going back to Dutrow when asked why he gives his horses steroids...he didn't have an answer for the interviewer.

I'm sure Dutrow knows exactly why his horses got monthly steroid shots.

The problem is rather that horse racing is generally run by a bunch of guys in charge of their individual fifdoms, that only react when forced into a corner, and then often react inadequately or oddly inappropriately (Life at Ten and the KHRC a good example of what they view to be the "problems" in the sport)

Horse racing in America is a group of cliques, where professionalism varies widely.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

The problem is whether legal or not some people use whatever they can get their hands on to improve performance...and think that as long as it doesn't test, they are doing nothing wrong. You're a trainer and a smart one...I'm sure you know others who use stuff on their horses and have absolutely no clue as to what it does. Kind of like going back to Dutrow when asked why he gives his horses steroids...he didn't have an answer for the interviewer.

Human nature makes people cheat, not lax rules. While it is entirely far too easy to cheat the system now, there will always be those who will do whatever they can to make money regardless of how that is accomplished. People make the mistake and say they will do whatever they can to win. That isnt entirely true. If they could make more money losing, they would do that too. Which is one of the reasons that I skoff at the RMTC's assertion that it is making all this headway.

Dutrow is smarter than he looks or talks in interviews.

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Dutrow is smarter than he looks or talks in interviews.

I agree...the guy is a great horseman. It's just the perception his clueless response to administering steroids had on the general public leading up to the Belmont. Anyway I just can't agree that Big Brown bought as much good attention to horse racing as Zenyatta. Whether or not that translates into lifelong fans and new bettors who knows.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

I agree...the guy is a great horseman. It's just the perception his clueless response to administering steroids had on the general public leading up to the Belmont. Anyway I just can't agree that Big Brown bought as much good attention to horse racing as Zenyatta. Whether or not that translates into lifelong fans and new bettors who knows.

I just dont think that outside the 2 week window leading up to the BC there was that much exposure. I was in Chicago the entire summer and there was zero mention of her, zero. That is one of the largest markets in the country and I don't see where she was even on anyones radar outside of regular fans.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Zenyatta fans want to talk about how "historic" her quest was (which I understand), but goodness forbid if others want to talk about Zenyatta and "racing history."

Since you are so into history, can you please name for me those performances, since Lady's Secret, by an older female on dirt against males that were superior to Zenyatta's Breeders' Cup Classic?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Since you are so into history, can you please name for me those performances, since Lady's Secret, by an older female on dirt against males that were superior to Zenyatta's Breeders' Cup Classic?

Jolypha.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Jolypha.

Oops. It was supposed to be an older female. Jolypha was a 3yo filly going against older males.

And everyone knows that 3yo fillies are much more advanced than 4 or 5 or 6 year old fillies/mares!

At least according to ass handicapper.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Jolypha.

she sure franked that form the next season when she kept running into a great horse in Flawlessly.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

she sure franked that form the next season when she kept running into a great horse in Flawlessly.

What do you mean by 'franked'?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

she sure franked that form the next season when she kept running into a great horse in Flawlessly.

Isn't comparing turf races and dirt races like comparing apples to oranges?

The consistency on this thread is pathetic.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Isn't comparing turf races and dirt races like comparing apples to oranges?

The consistency on this thread is pathetic.

I think her suck up third was mostly likely a total illusion, certainly I thought Pleasant Tap was running a very weak second to a dominant winner that day.

I think Jolypha was better on turf but if you think its dirt thats fine, I have no way to say it was not.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

I think her suck up third was mostly likely a total illusion, certainly I thought Pleasant Tap was running a very weak second to a dominant winner that day.

I think Jolypha was better on turf but if you think its dirt thats fine, I have no way to say it was not.

What do you mean by "suck up"?

A rapid early pace that led to a meltdown with a bunch of closers coming to pick up all the pieces?

Actually, Jolypha was positioned in front of both AP Indy and Pleasant Tap early in the race--only 3 lengths off a :45+ half, but had to alter course to the inside of Sultry Song at the 3/8s, allowing the other two to move past her approaching the stretch, yet she had enough turn of foot to split horses and get back in front of Pleasant Tap midstretch, only to hang late.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Those types of races have been produced by three-year-old fillies, though.

In my pillory-free zone, I'm not sure I would put any performance by a 3YO filly since Lady's Secret in that category, since they were primarily in races restricted to 3YOs. I also can't think of a performance by a 3YO filly against older males in the relevant time frame that is superior to Zenyatta's Breeders' Cup Classic.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

In my pillory-free zone, I'm not sure I would put any performance by a 3YO filly since Lady's Secret in that category, since they were primarily in races restricted to 3YOs. I also can't think of a performance by a 3YO filly against older males in the relevant time frame that is superior to Zenyatta's Breeders' Cup Classic.

I can definatly think of one. A winning effort to boot.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

In my pillory-free zone, I'm not sure I would put any performance by a 3YO filly since Lady's Secret in that category, since they were primarily in races restricted to 3YOs. I also can't think of a performance by a 3YO filly against older males in the relevant time frame that is superior to Zenyatta's Breeders' Cup Classic.

Zenyatta's recent BC Classic try is right up there with Jolypha's '92 BC Classic effort and Island Fashion's '04 Big Cap.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Zenyatta's recent BC Classic try is right up there with Jolypha's '92 BC Classic effort and Island Fashion's '04 Big Cap.

Jolypha ran well in a pretty good edition of the BC Classic.

The 2004 Big Cap was a very weak edition of that race, after the top SoCal horses (Pleasantly Perfect and Medaglia D'Oro) skipped the race and went to Dubai for the World Cup. In a better edition of the race the following year (Rock Hard Ten, Congrats, Saint Liam), Island Fashion finished 9th at 21-1.

[Cannon Shell]

Serena's Songs 3rd in the 96 Islen to Smart Strike under Donna Barton. That might have been a better effort than her 2nd by a neck in the Whitney.