I need to listen to ATR more often

[ateamstupid]

Davidowitz: "Personal Ensign ran down Winning Colors who was running her eyeballs out, just like Zenyatta ran down St Trinians who was running her eyeballs out."




I obviously respect his opinion, but his lack of perspective in this discussion is incredible.

[Rupert Pupkin]

I don't know if it's relevant to this discussion but here is an article about Zenyatta and Beyer numbers:

http://drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do?NID=113943

[ateamstupid]

Also, "I'm not putting a crown on her head." What? Didn't you just say she's better than Personal Ensign and Bayakoa? You also managed to mention her in the same breath as Secretariat, Picasso and Rembrandt before Byk got a word in. If that's not you crowning something, I don't think I want to know your idea of a coronation.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Also, "I'm not putting a crown on her head." What? Didn't you just say she's better than Personal Ensign and Bayakoa? You also managed to mention her in the same breath as Secretariat, Picasso and Rembrandt before Byk got a word in. If that's not you crowning something, I don't think I want to know your idea of a coronation.

Now you're just talking about semantics. If a guy says that he thinks a horse is "one of the all-time greats", is that putting a crown on the horse's head? I don't know the answer to that. The guy is just giving his opinion. I don't know if I would define that as "putting a crown on her head".

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Now you're just talking about semantics. If a guy says that he thinks a horse is "one of the all-time greats", is that putting a crown on the horse's head? I don't know the answer to that. The guy is just giving his opinion. I don't know if I would define that as "putting a crown on her head".

Sounds like you're the one arguing semantics. The point is, he bestowed extreme praise on her and then backed off by saying he's not crowning her. Both ways it can't be.

And yes, he lacks perspective when he aligns the achievements of Personal Ensign and Zenyatta the way he does. What Zenyatta did against St Trinians, while impressive, is absolutely irrelevant to what PE did against Winning Colors, because their competition were in two completely different classes of animal.

See, this is the problem with Zenyatta freaks. They like comparing her to the great racemares of the past, and their justification for doing so is her record and her running style. But record and running style are next to meaningless if you're beating up on ordinary horses 95% of the time. And yes, ST is an ordinary horse, I don't care what the toteboard in the Big Cap said.

It's also a problem with racing fans in general, the constant impulse to compare horses of the present to horses of the past, and it's usually unfair to the horse of the present. Instead of everyone appreciating Zenyatta for what she is, a very good mare with a beautiful and admirable will to win, rational racing fans are inundated with comparisons to Cigar and Citation and Personal Ensign and Secretariat and Picasso and Rembrandt. It's tiresome and unnecessary. Why is there such a rush to measure up the stars of today against the ghosts of the past while horses like Zenyatta are still writing their own stories?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Sounds like you're the one arguing semantics. The point is, he bestowed extreme praise on her and then backed off by saying he's not crowning her. Both ways it can't be.

And yes, he lacks perspective when he aligns the achievements of Personal Ensign and Zenyatta the way he does. What Zenyatta did against St Trinians, while impressive, is absolutely irrelevant to what PE did against Winning Colors, because their competition were in two completely different classes of animal.

See, this is the problem with Zenyatta freaks. They like comparing her to the great racemares of the past, and their justification for doing so is her record and her running style. But record and running style are next to meaningless if you're beating up on ordinary horses 95% of the time. And yes, ST is an ordinary horse, I don't care what the toteboard in the Big Cap said.

It's also a problem with racing fans in general, the constant impulse to compare horses of the present to horses of the past, and it's usually unfair to the horse of the present. Instead of everyone appreciating Zenyatta for what she is, a very good mare with a beautiful and admirable will to win, rational racing fans are inundated with comparisons to Cigar and Citation and Personal Ensign and Secretariat and Picasso and Rembrandt. It's tiresome and unnecessary. Why is there such a rush to measure up the stars of today against the ghosts of the past while horses like Zenyatta are still writing their own stories?

Davidowitz only backed off when he was getting admonished for "anointing" Zenyatta. He was basically saying, "I'm not "anointing" her. I'm just giving my opinion." What's wrong with a guy giving his opinion, even if he is wrong. I think Davidowitz knows enough about the game to be able to give an opinion. His opinion is certainly an educated opinion whether you agree or disagree with him.

I agree with you that it is tough to compare current stars to past stars in any sport but people still like to try to do it. It makes for interesting conversation. Everyone has a different opinion.

There are people who are "positive" that Tiger Woods is better than Jack Nicklaus and there are others that are "sure" that Jack was better.

Any time someone (a person or a horse) keeps winning, the question will always come up as to how this person (or horse) would comapre to stars of the the past.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

It's also a problem with racing fans in general, the constant impulse to compare horses of the present to horses of the past, and it's usually unfair to the horse of the present. Instead of everyone appreciating Zenyatta for what she is, a very good mare with a beautiful and admirable will to win, rational racing fans are inundated with comparisons to Cigar and Citation and Personal Ensign and Secretariat and Picasso and Rembrandt. It's tiresome and unnecessary. Why is there such a rush to measure up the stars of today against the ghosts of the past while horses like Zenyatta are still writing their own stories?

You mean like the people last year (whether accurate or not is irrelevant if I understand your point) who were saying that Rachel was in the midst of the "greatest" campaign ever authored by a 3YO filly.

[Smooth Operator]

WOW … 10 of PE's 13 career races were at the same race track???

That's hilarious.


Gotta find out more about some of these 'monster' mares from the past (like WC) when I get a chance


By the way, you guys do realize that turf titans such as Funny Cide, Charismatic, and Mine That Bird have also won the KY Derby … right?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

You mean like the people last year (whether accurate or not is irrelevant if I understand your point) who were saying that Rachel was in the midst of the "greatest" campaign ever authored by a 3YO filly.

in the context of the years since the last filly to win a preakness, and with the fact she became the first 3 yo filly to win a gr 1 unrestricted versus older males, it was one hell of a campaign....greatest ever-maybe not. but it was certainly a rare one, especially in this day and age.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Davidowitz: "Personal Ensign ran down Winning Colors who was running her eyeballs out, just like Zenyatta ran down St Trinians who was running her eyeballs out."




I obviously respect his opinion, but his lack of perspective in this discussion is incredible.

I don't think he's lacking perspective at all. He's not saying that St Trinians is as good as Winning Colors. You obviously can't compare the two fillies. One of them won the Derby. The other is a grass/synthetic specialist.

When a filly wins the Derby, that obviously speaks for itself. Winning Colors was obviously a great filly. St Trinians can't be mentioned in the same breath as Winning Colors. But St Trinians does have a great turn of foot and she is a very tough filly on a synthetic track on her best day. She ran huge on Sunday. She was sprinting home that final 1/8th of a mile. She won't go down as an all-time great, but on her best day St Trininas can probably beat any filly or mare in the country right now (with the exception of Zenyatta) on a synthetic track. On Sunday, St Trinians was very hard to run down.