Thoughts On NBA at midseason

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Yeah sure and the situation that he has now is really similar to the one proposed. As Scavs said they dont have many other offensive options at the present time. Perhaps if you knew about the injury issues that the bulls have been dealing with not to mention the precarious situation that the head coach is in you wuld understand why he NEEDS to be the focal point of the offense.

LOL. I love the cop out. Like you and Scav have special access to insider bulls info. Every team has injury issues and any coach in the NBA not on a winning team on ly has so long. Vinny will make it to the end of the season barring something crazy.

I love Rose as a player. I think he is an excellent player. The part that Rose isn't a shoot first point guard is especially funny considering thats what he was at Memphis and thats what he has been so far in two seasons in chicago. My assessment is based on facts...indisputable facts. Yours is based on speculative jibberish about what you HOPE he might CHANGE into.

Hope and change...maybe we are on to something!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

LOL. I love the cop out. Like you and Scav have special access to insider bulls info. Every team has injury issues and any coach in the NBA not on a winning team on ly has so long. Vinny will make it to the end of the season barring something crazy.

I love Rose as a player. I think he is an excellent player. The part that Rose isn't a shoot first point guard is especially funny considering thats what he was at Memphis and thats what he has been so far in two seasons in chicago. My assessment is based on facts...indisputable facts. Yours is based on speculative jibberish about what you HOPE he might CHANGE into.

Hope and change...maybe we are on to something!

Cop out? I dont know about Scavs but I actually watch understand the games. Anyone with a clue would see the Bulls best chance at success with the current roster and yes with the injuries is for Rose to be the focal point of the offense and yes that means he get to shoot 17 times a game. You act like he is hoisting up 30 a game. You act as though the coach doesnt matter but when you have a guy like Del Negro holding on by his fingernails he is interested in winning now and on the team he has the best chance is to create offense via Rose.

Your facts are quite useless as we arent talking about each individuals current situation. Since we are talking hypothetically you have to have a little better understanding of professional basketball then just throwing out he shoots 3 shots a game more than other PG's so there is no way he could ever be able to pass the ball to Dwayne wade and Chris Bosh and only shoot 13 times a game. You cant ask him to be a distributor on the three teams that we have seen him play on. Does that mean he cant? This isn't like you are asking him to get 15 rebounds a game or block 5 shots. You are asking him to share the ball with one of the top 3 players in the sport. He has been a shoot first point guard by necessity not because it is all he can do.

I guess if I see Jerry Colangelo today I better tell him to cut Rose from the National team roster because he can't pass to all star players.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

LOL. I love the cop out. Like you and Scav have special access to insider bulls info. Every team has injury issues and any coach in the NBA not on a winning team on ly has so long. Vinny will make it to the end of the season barring something crazy.

I love Rose as a player. I think he is an excellent player. The part that Rose isn't a shoot first point guard is especially funny considering thats what he was at Memphis and thats what he has been so far in two seasons in chicago. My assessment is based on facts...indisputable facts. Yours is based on speculative jibberish about what you HOPE he might CHANGE into.

Hope and change...maybe we are on to something!

First off, I am Mr. Chicago.

2nd off, you need to actually watch these games. I have followed Rose since he played in high school (I saw a game live where he went against Jon Scheyer at Duke as someone told me I had to see Rose play, and seeing that game proceeded me to bet the living **** out of Memphis to win the NCAA Title the following year).

CDR was the go-to guy on Memphis. Derrick Rose is FAR from a shoot first guy. Matter of fact, he basically just found his jump shot and is still tweaking it. He was told up here to stop passing the damn ball to people that couldn't make shots. Vinny even said as much in a press conference where he told him to start taking over games and stop being so damn passive.

I love to see these facts that show he is a shoot first guy.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Scav

First off, I am Mr. Chicago.

2nd off, you need to actually watch these games. I have followed Rose since he played in high school (I saw a game live where he went against Jon Scheyer at Duke as someone told me I had to see Rose play, and seeing that game proceeded me to bet the living **** out of Memphis to win the NCAA Title the following year).

CDR was the go-to guy on Memphis. Derrick Rose is FAR from a shoot first guy. Matter of fact, he basically just found his jump shot and is still tweaking it. He was told up here to stop passing the damn ball to people that couldn't make shots. Vinny even said as much in a press conference where he told him to start taking over games and stop being so damn passive.

I love to see these facts that show he is a shoot first guy.

First off, I've watched Rose play plenty of times. I don't give a **** if youre dr detroit, Rose is a shoot first point guard and the stats bear it out. CDR was the leading scorer for that Memphis team. Do you realize that he only took 40 more shots than Rose did for the entire year that year? Do you realize that Rose averaged only 4.7 assists per game that season despite playing with 3 future NBA draft picks? Do you realize that Rose took 17 shots in the title game and was 1-6 from the 3 pt range?

Do you realize that Rose is 8th in the league in attempts this year? Do you realize that he averages 5.7 assists per game vs. 17.5 shots? When you shoot 3 times more than you pass you are a shoot first point guard anyway you spin it.

Found his jump shot? He is shooting 22% from 3 pt range. He better keep looking.

Listen, I like Rose. I think he is a wonderful young player. He could very well develop into a better distibutor but that isnt his game yet. It may never be. still, its not an indictment saying that he is a shoot first PG. My favorite player is a shoot first PG. isaiah thomas was a shoot first PG. At the same time, pairing him with three other guys that all want the ball would be a chemistry issue.

Could that team win games? Of course. Win championships? I don't think so.

I gave you stats to back up my point. Do you have any stats or facts or just rumors of Del Negro rantings and tales of high school glory?

[Scav]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

First off, I've watched Rose play plenty of times. I don't give a **** if youre dr detroit, Rose is a shoot first point guard and the stats bear it out. CDR was the leading scorer for that Memphis team. Do you realize that he only took 40 more shots than Rose did for the entire year that year? Do you realize that Rose averaged only 4.7 assists per game that season despite playing with 3 future NBA draft picks? Do you realize that Rose took 17 shots in the title game and was 1-6 from the 3 pt range?

Do you realize that Rose is 8th in the league in attempts this year? Do you realize that he averages 5.7 assists per game vs. 17.5 shots? When you shoot 3 times more than you pass you are a shoot first point guard anyway you spin it.
Found his jump shot? He is shooting 22% from 3 pt range. He better keep looking.

Listen, I like Rose. I think he is a wonderful young player. He could very well develop into a better distibutor but that isnt his game yet. It may never be. still, its not an indictment saying that he is a shoot first PG. My favorite player is a shoot first PG. isaiah thomas was a shoot first PG. At the same time, pairing him with three other guys that all want the ball would be a chemistry issue.

Could that team win games? Of course. Win championships? I don't think so.

I gave you stats to back up my point. Do you have any stats or facts or just rumors of Del Negro rantings and tales of high school glory?

The thing that you are just not comprehending is that the reason those numbers are the way they are is because who he is surrounded with. When Noah or Thomas are on the floor, it is basically 4 on 5 on the offensive side of the ball. Deng takes nights off too. He has been forced into that role.

And using Memphis statistics to prove a point is nuts. That offensive is strictly based on if you can break someone down, you do it, and if you can't get past the person for a layup/dunk, you dish the rock. Rose was strictly quicker then everyone that year, and just blew by people.

Also, so you know, jump shots and 3 pt shots are completely different. He has found his 12-15 foot JUMP SHOT. His 3pt shooting is far from average.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Scav

The thing that you are just not comprehending is that the reason those numbers are the way they are is because who he is surrounded with. When Noah or Thomas are on the floor, it is basically 4 on 5 on the offensive side of the ball. Deng takes nights off too. He has been forced into that role.

And using Memphis statistics to prove a point is nuts. That offensive is strictly based on if you can break someone down, you do it, and if you can't get past the person for a layup/dunk, you dish the rock. Rose was strictly quicker then everyone that year, and just blew by people.

Also, so you know, jump shots and 3 pt shots are completely different. He has found his 12-15 foot JUMP SHOT. His 3pt shooting is far from average.

Okay, first and foremost, the "dribble drive" is Calipari's offense...just so you know. John Wall is playing in the same offense and averages 2 assists more per game. Is he not quick? Does he not blow by people? He passes first and shoots second. He is a Pass first point guard. Maybe you can comprehend that some day.

Also, so you know, 12-15 ft range is a joke in the NBA. Any player, not 7 ft and 300 lbs is required to have that coming into the league. If you cant hit a 12 foot shot, you arent playing. Rose could shoot 12 ft. Heck, he could shoot to about 18 coming into the league. He is isnt finding a 12 ft shot. LOL

Seriously, Dr Chicago, you need to stick to giving out loser Saluki picks. Your knowledge of NBA hoop is lacking if you think one of the better young point guards in the league is now just "finding" a 12 ft jumper.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Okay, first and foremost, the "dribble drive" is Calipari's offense...just so you know. John Wall is playing in the same offense and averages 2 assists more per game. Is he not quick? Does he not blow by people? He passes first and shoots second. He is a Pass first point guard. Maybe you can comprehend that some day.

Also, so you know, 12-15 ft range is a joke in the NBA. Any player, not 7 ft and 300 lbs is required to have that coming into the league. If you cant hit a 12 foot shot, you arent playing. Rose could shoot 12 ft. Heck, he could shoot to about 18 coming into the league. He is isnt finding a 12 ft shot. LOL

Seriously, Dr Chicago, you need to stick to giving out loser Saluki picks. Your knowledge of NBA hoop is lacking if you think one of the better young point guards in the league is now just "finding" a 12 ft jumper.

You obviously haven't watched the Bulls then because Tyrus Thomas doesn't have this, he thinks he does, as he always 'leaves' his wrist cocked after a shot like it is money, but no.

You are pretty classic.

Also, comparing Derrick Rose when he was at Memphis to John Wall at Kentucky is absolutely nuts. Kentucky is so much more loaded then Memphis was, Wall having 2 more assists means nothing. Kentucky has 7-8 guys that can score 20-24 pts a night if they needed too. Memphis had maybe 2-3 and had a unit that had played together for 3 years straight. Rose was a missing piece to that puzzle, Kentucky was built in four weeks.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Scav

You obviously haven't watched the Bulls then because Tyrus Thomas doesn't have this, he thinks he does, as he always 'leaves' his wrist cocked after a shot like it is money, but no.

You are pretty classic.

Also, comparing Derrick Rose when he was at Memphis to John Wall at Kentucky is absolutely nuts. Kentucky is so much more loaded then Memphis was, Wall having 2 more assists means nothing. Kentucky has 7-8 guys that can score 20-24 pts a night if they needed too. Memphis had maybe 2-3 and had a unit that had played together for 3 years straight. Rose was a missing piece to that puzzle, Kentucky was built in four weeks.

Yeah, that memphis team was awful. They had three other guys get drafted. They were a veteran team that made it deep the previous year without Rose. Why don't you go back and watch some videos and come chat with me then.

You really havent said anything here. Earlier, you said that Rose is "finding" a 12 ft jump shot midway through his second year in the NBA. Somehow we are now talking about Tyrus Thomas holding his wrist out. Please explain how one has to do with the other. I don't know what game you are watching where Derrick Rose can't hit a 12 foot jumper or is just finding one. Either way, unless I take about 10 valium, I dont think I can dumb myself down enough for us to discuss this.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Do you realize that Rose is 8th in the league in attempts this year? Do you realize that he averages 5.7 assists per game vs. 17.5 shots? When you shoot 3 times more than you pass you are a shoot first point guard anyway you spin it.
Found his jump shot? He is shooting 22% from 3 pt range. He better keep looking.

You do realize that the player you pass it to needs to score in order to get an assist right? That a shot attempted is counted regardless of whether it goes in or not right? So your versus comparison is not really accurate in the way that you portray it?

Derrick Rose has played 1844 minutes this season. He has taken 22 three point shots. So he takes a three point shot every 84 minutes. Quite relevant these numbers you are using as "facts" when we are having a theoretical discussion.

You want to breakdown things that can't be broken down. Basketball isnt baseball, the absolutes are far greater in baseball. While you are somewhat effected by the park you play in and helped or hurt slightly by the calibur of hitters in front and behind you you basically are on your own at the plate. Same with a pitcher who is effected by the park and the defense behind him. But in the end guys who can hit do about what they are able to do. Same with pitchers. But in basketball you are far more effected statistically by the system your team runs and the players strength and weaknesses around you. I hate to keep bringing up Channng Frye but his example is easily understood. He didnt learn to shoot three point shots over the summer. He has just been allowed (encouraged?) to shoot them this year because the system of offense and team he plays for allows it. There was no stats that could have predicted him going from a guy who shot 20 for 70 for his entire 4 year career to a guy who has shot 120-277 in 53 games this year. If I had said that I thought Channing Frye was going to have a breakout year as a three point shooter this year you would have called me an idiot and said that no way he goes from taking 30 all year to shooting 5 a game. While admittedly there was little chance of me coming up with that hypothesis, there is a 100% chance that I would have got called an idiot and you would have dragged out the stats to "prove" it. The idea that the team I proposed (which can't really happen I found out tonight because of salary cap rules even if they were able to trade Thomas and Hinrich) could mesh and Deng and Rose would sacrifice a few shots when playing with other offensive stars is far less of a stretch than Frye becoming a prolific three point shooter.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You do realize that the player you pass it to needs to score in order to get an assist right? That a shot attempted is counted regardless of whether it goes in or not right? So your versus comparison is not really accurate in the way that you portray it?

Derrick Rose has played 1844 minutes this season. He has taken 22 three point shots. So he takes a three point shot every 84 minutes. Quite relevant these numbers you are using as "facts" when we are having a theoretical discussion.

You want to breakdown things that can't be broken down. Basketball isnt baseball, the absolutes are far greater in baseball. While you are somewhat effected by the park you play in and helped or hurt slightly by the calibur of hitters in front and behind you you basically are on your own at the plate. Same with a pitcher who is effected by the park and the defense behind him. But in the end guys who can hit do about what they are able to do. Same with pitchers. But in basketball you are far more effected statistically by the system your team runs and the players strength and weaknesses around you. I hate to keep bringing up Channng Frye but his example is easily understood. He didnt learn to shoot three point shots over the summer. He has just been allowed (encouraged?) to shoot them this year because the system of offense and team he plays for allows it. There was no stats that could have predicted him going from a guy who shot 20 for 70 for his entire 4 year career to a guy who has shot 120-277 in 53 games this year. If I had said that I thought Channing Frye was going to have a breakout year as a three point shooter this year you would have called me an idiot and said that no way he goes from taking 30 all year to shooting 5 a game. While admittedly there was little chance of me coming up with that hypothesis, there is a 100% chance that I would have got called an idiot and you would have dragged out the stats to "prove" it. The idea that the team I proposed (which can't really happen I found out tonight because of salary cap rules even if they were able to trade Thomas and Hinrich) could mesh and Deng and Rose would sacrifice a few shots when playing with other offensive stars is far less of a stretch than Frye becoming a prolific three point shooter.

There is no doubt that system plays a piece in a player's performance. After watching the D'antoni system the last few years, I wouldn't be surprised if anyone short of shaq became a decent three baller especially the way Nash runs it. Frye always showed range although not 3 pt range. I dont think its so much of a stretch at all. He was always a soft perimeter player anyway with no low post game to speak of.

I will say that Rose becoming a decent three point shooter would shock me a whole lot more than Frye becoming one has. Rose becoming a great passer doesnt surprise me because he is already a great passer. He has incredible vision. I never said he didnt. Its just not his game. He isnt a spot up guy and he wants the ball. Wade isnt a spot up guy and wants the ball. Neither of them have range to open up the middle to drive or free up the low post. Thats the point.

I get your point. We simply disagree. Can we move on?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I will say that Rose becoming a decent three point shooter would shock me a whole lot more than Frye becoming one has. Rose becoming a great passer doesnt surprise me because he is already a great passer. He has incredible vision. I never said he didnt. Its just not his game. He isnt a spot up guy and he wants the ball. Wade isnt a spot up guy and wants the ball. Neither of them have range to open up the middle to drive or free up the low post. Thats the point.

I get your point. We simply disagree. Can we move on?

You are labeling a 21 year old guy based on a year playing with Roll the balls out Calipari and a year and a half of Vinny ball? Now he can pass but he doesn't have it in him to do it? And the topper Dwayne Wade doesnt have the range to open up the middle or free up the low post? Is that the same Dwayne Wade i see play? The guy who has a deadly 18 foot jumper in the foul line extended area? Really?

You want to "win" and unwinnable argument. The original point i made was that Chicago had a much better supporting cast than New York did and potentially more cap money if they could pull off a couple of farily logical trades. I never guaranteed a championship, I never said it was likely to happen. But I felt that it would be an interesting and dangerous team. Obviously I felt that Rose has greater potential to be more than a scoring point guard and would no doubt adjust his game to having one of the NBA's best players along side him in the backcourt. You feel differently. I felt that Bosh would mesh nicely playing alongside a strong rebounder and good defender like Noah and that Deng would do an adequate job as a long three man who would benefit from the defensive focus being elsewhere. I felt that Gibson has a lot of potential off the bench and that Salmons would give them a scorer with range who could give points off the bench. All of these assumptions are hardly wild. The biggest issue with that team (of course there are only 7 guys and Johnson is under contract so other pieces would have to be added) is defending a strong 2 guard as Deng isnt quick enough and you dont want Wade to chase a guy all over the court. That and Salmons potential to pout.

You want to tell me that I am an idiot because they currently shoot 68 times a game. Ok, nice discussion.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You are labeling a 21 year old guy based on a year playing with Roll the balls out Calipari and a year and a half of Vinny ball? Now he can pass but he doesn't have it in him to do it? And the topper Dwayne Wade doesnt have the range to open up the middle or free up the low post? Is that the same Dwayne Wade i see play? The guy who has a deadly 18 foot jumper in the foul line extended area? Really?

You want to "win" and unwinnable argument. The original point i made was that Chicago had a much better supporting cast than New York did and potentially more cap money if they could pull off a couple of farily logical trades. I never guaranteed a championship, I never said it was likely to happen. But I felt that it would be an interesting and dangerous team. Obviously I felt that Rose has greater potential to be more than a scoring point guard and would no doubt adjust his game to having one of the NBA's best players along side him in the backcourt. You feel differently. I felt that Bosh would mesh nicely playing alongside a strong rebounder and good defender like Noah and that Deng would do an adequate job as a long three man who would benefit from the defensive focus being elsewhere. I felt that Gibson has a lot of potential off the bench and that Salmons would give them a scorer with range who could give points off the bench. All of these assumptions are hardly wild. The biggest issue with that team (of course there are only 7 guys and Johnson is under contract so other pieces would have to be added) is defending a strong 2 guard as Deng isnt quick enough and you dont want Wade to chase a guy all over the court. That and Salmons potential to pout.

You want to tell me that I am an idiot because they currently shoot 68 times a game. Ok, nice discussion.

For the record, you started the "idiot" stuff first but i forgive you.

An interesting and dangerous team? You don't throw those guys together to be "interesting and dangerous". You throw them together to win a title. I don't think that team wins a title of any kind but ive already stated my issues why. I actually don't think defense would be an issue. they might get pushed around some in the paint but that is a long, athletic team. I think defense is where the most adjustments can be made especially if guys buy in. Wade is a tremendous defensive player if not a lock down. Rose can be anything he wants to be. Deng is long and athletic as are Noah and Bosh. That team would certainly lead the league in blocked shots.

Slashers have to be paired with spot up shooters to open up the lanes. Potential spacing issues are so often forgotten when putting together a team. People always mix up chemistry for whether or not guys like each other. Its whether they can occupy the same parts of the floor, whether they need the ball to be effective, whether they can spot up.

Be nice and you can have the last word.