HOTY: If Zenyatta wins the Classic...

[slotdirt]

The fact that the turf male of the year finished second ahead of the good natural dirt horses is pretty telling, IMO, particularly considering Gio Ponti's one other synthetic try was pretty mediocre.

I thought sending Summer Bird to the Classic and not to a race like the Clark was a huge mistake before yesterday.

[copying]

UNDEFEATED CHAMP. Won championship race going away. Didn't say "I can't beat those horses at that distance on that surface - so I'm staying home."
HOY - no brainer!

[CSC]

The surface debate is immaterial to me, you play the cards dealt to you, next year they are holding the BC at Chuchill Downs and the synth horses will supposedly be at a disadvantage. Supposing there is a Poly horse that builds a RA type resume and coasts to perhaps a HOY, will there be any dissentions also? There just seems to be so much of an anti-bias here that synth horses are inferior to dirt horses, I must be missing something because I don't get it?

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by CSC

The surface debate is immaterial to me, you play the cards dealt to you, next year they are holding the BC at Chuchill Downs and the synth horses will supposedly be at a disadvantage. Supposing there is a Poly horse that builds a RA type resume and coasts to perhaps a HOY, will there be any dissentions also? There just seems to be so much of an anti-bias here that synth horses are inferior to dirt horses, I must be missing something because I don't get it?

Maybe because dirt is a natural surface that has been used to measure which horse was the best for thousands of years?

You don't have dirt specialists like you do synth specialists.

I think synth racing is more interesting from a betting perspective (because, for instance, people made Pyro 5-1 yesterday), but it allows horses who are nothing special on dirt to pass their more talented rivals when those rivals can't handle the fake stuff.

I don't think Zenyatta falls into the category of synth specialist, though.

(I realize how played out this whole argument is. . . )

[CSC]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

Maybe because dirt is a natural surface that has been used to measure which horse was the best for thousands of years?

You don't have dirt specialists like you do synth specialists.

I think synth racing is more interesting from a betting perspective (because, for instance, people made Pyro 5-1 yesterday), but it allows horses who are nothing special on dirt to pass their more talented rivals when those rivals can't handle the fake stuff.

I don't think Zenyatta falls into the category of synth specialist, though.

(I realize how played out this whole argument is. . . )

Is it time they add a 3rd catagory for eclispe awards? Best Synth horse...Given the hand all horses were dealt this yr I would be hard pressed to blame Sheriff's/Moss for the campaign they had drawn for Z with especially the way it played out yesterday, if the BC was held at CD they may have chosen a more ambitious campaign, they did go in the Classic rather than the Ladies Classic, it seems not many have given them credit for this also. They could have gone the Peppers Pride route but they put up something yesterday.

Agreed this argument has been played out and will be played out again no doubt, but regardless thank you for the thoughtful response.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by CSC

Is it time they add a 3rd catagory for eclispe awards? Best Synth horse...Given the hand all horses were dealt this yr I would be hard pressed to blame Sheriff's/Moss for the campaign they had drawn for Z, if the BC was held at CD they may have chosen a more ambitious campaign, they did go in the Classic rather than the Ladies Classic, it seems not many have given them credit for this also. They could have gone the Peppers Pride route but they put up something yesterday.

Agreed this argument has been played out and will be played out again no doubt, but regardless thank you for the thoughtful response.

There was no way they could go to the Ladies' Classic. . . wasn't a very hard decision.

Just like running RA in the Woodward instead of the Travers was a no-brainer.

[DaTruth]

How do they stack up on Thorograph numbers. As I posted earlier, RA smoked Z on the Beyers.

[3kings]

Originally Posted by DaTruth

How do they stack up on Thorograph numbers. As I posted earlier, RA smoked Z on the Beyers.

Synthetic Beyers are normally lower than dirt #'s. Hard to do a comparison that way.

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

There was no way they could go to the Ladies' Classic. . . wasn't a very hard decision.

Just like running RA in the Woodward instead of the Travers was a no-brainer.

Although I respect Jerry Bailey and think he does a great job on TV, I thought he was way off when he said Rachel and co. ducked the tougher spot when they chose the Woodward over the Travers shortly after the Classic.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

Although I respect Jerry Bailey and think he does a great job on TV, I thought he was way off when he said Rachel and co. ducked the tougher spot when they chose the Woodward over the Travers shortly after the Classic.

That was the beauty of it - it LOOKED like a harder spot, but Summer Bird and Quality Road were/are superior to anyone running in the Travers. Even if they were ducking it would be hard to "prove" - whatever that means.

Macho Again and co. are obviously better than Anabaa's Creation, etc. though.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

Although I respect Jerry Bailey and think he does a great job on TV, I thought he was way off when he said Rachel and co. ducked the tougher spot when they chose the Woodward over the Travers shortly after the Classic.

I completely disagree. The Woodward field was a bunch of proven subpar older horses. The Travers was against two (at the time you could say 4) up and coming horses who already were running figures better then the Woodward field. Not to mention the distance factor which further makes the Travers the tougher spot. I thought Summer bird and Quality Roads performance in the Gold Cup even further vindicates the notion that the Travers was not only tougher but much tougher than the Woodward.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

Although I respect Jerry Bailey and think he does a great job on TV, I thought he was way off when he said Rachel and co. ducked the tougher spot when they chose the Woodward over the Travers shortly after the Classic.

Bailey doesn't sugarcoat anything, many don't like him because he speaks his mind but I don't know how anyone could think Macho Again and Bullsbay are better than Summer Bird or Quality Road now and then....In my opinion the connections picked the easier spot and laid out the premptive notion if she won she had done enough this year. If Bailey wants to call it 'ducking' I'm 100% behind that notion.

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

The fact that the turf male of the year finished second ahead of the good natural dirt horses is pretty telling, IMO, particularly considering Gio Ponti's one other synthetic try was pretty mediocre.

I thought sending Summer Bird to the Classic and not to a race like the Clark was a huge mistake before yesterday.

Gio Ponti has won a grade 3 on synthetic.
Summer Bird outran proven synthetic horses yesterday.
Gio Ponti could be good on dirt but since he's never attempted, he is,and should be labeled a turf horse.
Einstein has proven himself on every surface and was outrun by Summer Bird.
Girolamo was the only dirt horse in the field who had never tried synthetic and ran poorly.
RVW was the only turf horse in the field who had never tried synthetic and ran poorly
Regal Ransom was the only dirt horse in the field who had previously tried synthetic unsuccessfully.
Zenyatta is a proven dirt horse who happens to be located in synthetic surroundings.

It is a myth that turf runners are better on synthetic than dirt horses.The fact is that more turf runners attempt synthetics than dirt runners.

Summer Bird was not good enough to win yesterday.It is much too convenient to use the surface as an excuse.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

Gio Ponti has won a grade 3 on synthetic.
Summer Bird outran proven synthetic horses yesterday.
Gio Ponti could be good on dirt but since he's never attempted, he is,and should be labeled a turf horse.
Einstein has proven himself on every surface and was outrun by Summer Bird.
Girolamo was the only dirt horse in the field who had never tried synthetic and ran poorly.
RVW was the only turf horse in the field who had never tried synthetic and ran poorly
Regal Ransom was the only dirt horse in the field who had previously tried synthetic unsuccessfully.
Zenyatta is a proven dirt horse who happens to be located in synthetic surroundings.

It is a myth that turf runners are better on synthetic than dirt horses.The fact is that more turf runners attempt synthetics than dirt runners.

Summer Bird was not good enough to win yesterday.It is much too convenient to use the surface as an excuse.

Zenyatta's a proven dirt horse because of one race at Oaklawn? Zenyatta is a synthetic horse who proved she can run on dirt.

Zenyatta would make an awfully fascinating Dubai World Cup winner on the new synthetic surface in the inaugural running at Meydan.

NT

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Zenyatta's a proven dirt horse because of one race at Oaklawn? Zenyatta is a synthetic horse who proved she can run on dirt.

Zenyatta would make an awfully fascinating Dubai World Cup winner on the new synthetic surface in the inaugural running at Meydan.

NT

Well she certainly can't be labeled a turf horse.
My point is that Summer Bird (or any proven dirt runner) could be a successful synthetic runner if he was given more opportunities.
Zenyatta runs her races in her locale which happens to be synthetic.If she was given more opportunities she could as she did in her only attempt be as good or better on dirt.

[2Hot4TV]

Zenyatta would of beat them on dirt too.

[letswastemoney]

No one can say Zenyatta can beat RA on dirt because the match up will never happen!!!!!

How quickly people forget RA's accomplishments

People only remember the last thing to happen. I am not saying Zenyatta wouldn't be a worthy HOY, but it's a bit presumptuous to assume Zenyatta would thump RA on dirt based off one dirt race.

[Cannon Shell]

Regardless of all the HoY bs I think it has been understated just how good of a ride Mike Smith gave her yesterday. That was flawless. Mike has been knocked a lot over the last few years and in some cases deservedly so, but that was one of the all-time money rides.

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

No one can say Zenyatta can beat RA on dirt because the match up will never happen!!!!!

How quickly people forget RA's accomplishments

People only remember the last thing to happen. I am not saying Zenyatta wouldn't be a worthy HOY, but it's a bit presumptuous to assume Zenyatta would thump RA on dirt based off one dirt race.

RA wants no part of a 1 1/4 mile race, the only way she will win at 1 1/4 against top notch horse is if she steals it on the front end. That isnt going to happen.

NO way could RA lay back and win No matter what the pace is and Zenyatta has done just that.

14 times she went to post any did just what it took to win, if they went 5 lenghts faster she would of won.

Zenyatta got 1 to 3 pounds where RA got 5 and just hung on to win.

Zenyatta closed the final 1/4 in 22 and change to overhaul this years Classic field and they were not backing up.

I would of liked to have seen her run at Churchill Downs, but it rained and her owners didn't want to take the chance.

Jess Jackson stayed at home and played it safe, even though RA has shown she will run on synthetics.

Jerry Moss said today that Zenyatta was done racing after what was her biggest highlight and when asked if he thought she should be horse of the year he said "She is his horse of the year and thats all that counts to him and his wife." Pure Class!

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

No one can say Zenyatta can beat RA on dirt because the match up will never happen!!!!!

How quickly people forget RA's accomplishments

People only remember the last thing to happen. I am not saying Zenyatta wouldn't be a worthy HOY, but it's a bit presumptuous to assume Zenyatta would thump RA on dirt based off one dirt race.

That is why I posted the link to all of their races above and I only hope whoever does have a vote for this silly award takes the time to absorb both horses' body of work this year.