2009 Breeders' Cup

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

If you were asking this of a horse that was an outsider and you had reason to think they could make this type of leap at a fair price then one might consider it, but Connie and Michael is just not going to offer the value necessary to take such a calculated risk.

How can the horse possibly be an outsider when it has run clearly the best race of anyone in the field?

On top of having clearly the best race ... it might be as high as 5th or 6th choice in the betting.

If you argued that the horse was an underlay for underneath in exotic spots .. than I would certainly agree because of her running style and the factors you mention.

These types often either win easily as non-favorites ... or bomb. They have an absolutely spectacular ROI on the win end ... but they also completely bomb quite a bit.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

How can the horse possibly be an outsider when it has run clearly the best race of anyone in the field?

On top of having clearly the best race ... it might be as high as 5th or 6th choice in the betting.

If you argued that the horse was an underlay for underneath in exotic spots .. than I would certainly agree because of her running style and the factors you mention.

These types often either win easily as non-favorites ... or bomb. They have an absolutely spectacular ROI on the win end ... but they also completely bomb quite a bit.

I wasn't saying that Connie and Michael is an outsider. I was saying that if you were asking a horse who's an outsider to step up and run big in a race like this off of one MSW race then the value would probably be there. Basically I was saying that there will be no value on Connie and Michael anywhere, at least to me, because the likelihood of her duplicating that effort is low. I think she's more likely to bomb.

NT

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I was saying that if you were asking a horse who's an outsider to step up and run big in a race like this off of one MSW race then the value would probably be there.

Yeah, the value would be there if you mean big odds ... but so would a less than sensational race ... and such a horse would have no shot at big odds.

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Basically I was saying that there will be no value on Connie and Michael anywhere, at least to me, because the likelihood of her duplicating that effort is low. I think she's more likely to bomb.

She is more likely than not to bomb .... but she is also more likely to win than her projected closing odds will indicate.

I have her as a possible big overlay to win and a possible huge underlay to finish underneath in exotics.

The opposite of how a horse like a Perfect Drift or Dynever was often a big underlay to win and an overlay to finish underneath.

Anyone that uses her in the 3rd or 4th slot in exotics is a fool. Anyone that denies her extreme once-a-year like debut talent is also being extremely foolish.

[philcski]

How many horses have won the BCJ or BCJF off just a debut race?

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by philcski

How many horses have won the BCJ or BCJF off just a debut race?

I believe none. Action This Day and Indian Blessing both had only two starts and that's the fewest any winners have had.

NT

[Indian Charlie]

I think UBS and Brocco both had two starts as well.

[NTamm1215]

Interestingly and somewhat obviously enough, the last three Juv Fillies winners at SA won the Oak Leaf.

I have basically no opinion on this year's Juv Fillies as it is by far the race on Friday I'm looking forward to the least. Except that I think Connie and Michael won't win.

NT

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I believe none. Action This Day and Indian Blessing both had only two starts and that's the fewest any winners have had.

NT

One of Indian Blessings was a Grade 1.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

One of Indian Blessings was a Grade 1.

Right.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by philcski

How many horses have won the BCJ or BCJF off just a debut race?

How many have ever been entered?

Very, very, very few ... and none of them even had so much as a slim chance.

You can find a lot of 4th and 5th choices who simply have no chance. Very rarely do you find a 4th or 5th choice who only needs to run back to her last race to win.

Few trainers suck as much as Ken McPeak does with debuting sprinters. Few trainers have ever been as strong as Ken McPeak is with 2nd time starters going long.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

How many have ever been entered?

Very, very, very few ... and none of them even had so much as a slim chance.

You can find a lot of 4th and 5th choices who simply have no chance. Very rarely do you find a 4th or 5th choice who only needs to run back to her last race to win.

Few trainers suck as much as Ken McPeak does with debuting sprinters. Few trainers have ever been as strong as Ken McPeak is with 2nd time starters going long.

It was a question for debate, given the horse discussed.

Very few that I can remember have been entered, usually because they wouldn't draw in anyways because the gate would fill with horses who had graded stakes points. Now so few 2yo's have more than 3-4 starts before the BC it certainly allows a maiden winner to not only get in but have a reasonable shot.

As for her odds, I think she might be higher than 4th or 5th choice. Always a Princess, Beautician, Bickersons, Blind Luck, Devil May Care, Negligee, and She Be Wild will probably be lower odds than her (whether warranted or not.) I think if you like her, you will get 15-1 or 20-1. My guesses...
Blind Luck 7/2
Negligee 9/2
She Be Wild 6/1
Devil May Care 10/1
Always a Princess 12/1
Beautician 15/1
Bickersons 15/1
Connie and Michael 15/1
Biofuel 25/1
Zilva 30/1
Ms Vanenzza 30/1
Champagne D'Oro 100/1

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by philcski

It was a question for debate, given the horse discussed.

Very few that I can remember have been entered, usually because they wouldn't draw in anyways because the gate would fill with horses who had graded stakes points. Now so few 2yo's have more than 3-4 starts before the BC it certainly allows a maiden winner to not only get in but have a reasonable shot.

As for her odds, I think she might be higher than 4th or 5th choice. Always a Princess, Beautician, Bickersons, Blind Luck, Devil May Care, Negligee, and She Be Wild will probably be lower odds than her (whether warranted or not.) I think if you like her, you will get 15-1 or 20-1. My guesses...
Blind Luck 7/2
Negligee 9/2
She Be Wild 6/1
Devil May Care 10/1
Always a Princess 12/1
Beautician 15/1
Bickersons 15/1
Connie and Michael 15/1
Biofuel 25/1
Zilva 30/1
Ms Vanenzza 30/1
Champagne D'Oro 100/1

You really think Beautician will be that high with the obvious trouble in last race and prior efforts?

[philcski]

Also, in reference to your McPeek stretchout comments, it looks like he's trying to enter my friend's horse off just a debut maiden win in the BCJ (or BCJT) since he scratched out of the Iroquois today.

While I'll root for him he doesn't have much of a chance and quite frankly I don't know if he'll even draw in, as he's last on the AE's list.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by philcski

I think if you like her, you will get 15-1 or 20-1. My guesses...
Blind Luck 7/2
Negligee 9/2
She Be Wild 6/1
Devil May Care 10/1
Always a Princess 12/1
Beautician 15/1
Bickersons 15/1
Connie and Michael 15/1
Biofuel 25/1
Zilva 30/1
Ms Vanenzza 30/1
Champagne D'Oro 100/1

It's been a long time since I've seen the clear-cut fastest horse go off the 8th choice in a race.