Cap and Trade vote on Friday

Originally Posted by Danzig

interesting that more countries are recognizing that right now we have bigger obstacles in front of us then warming-which may be why so many are re-thinking their priorities. but not obama and the House...

Personally, I think this issue has been tied to getting the US off of Petroleum and Coal. Imo opinion if we could get away from these two sources of energy, or at least limit our dependency with alternatives, it would solve some huge problems:

1. The middle east, Iran, Ven., and Russia dont hold US and therefore many of our allies hostage in negotiations that effect the economy later on.

2. We get rid of all sorts of pollution problems. (not even considering CO2 and any warming occuring)

Problem is it is so easy an inexpensive to keep on using Coal and Petroleum (for the moment). Coal will be easy for a long time. In some people's view it in the best interest of our country to bite the bullet now. Government has clearly has been a catalyst for innovation in the past (Conservatives and Republicans can now shudder in horror). I think Obama's group thinks we need to start, and the timing is actually good for various economic reasons
and politcal reasons.

I think this country has little will to see things through. Pain must be felt first. I believe this requires gas nees to go to 4-5 bucks a gallon again. And then further. Russia gets wealthy, Iran wont have social unrest because their economy is rolling, and we start "getting it" again.

Oh heck I can barely read this.
I did not make small newspaper long
sentences.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Personally, I think this issue has been tied to getting the US off of Petroleum and Coal. Imo opinion if we could get away from these two sources of energy, or at least limit our dependency with alternatives, it would solve some huge problems:

1. The middle east, Iran, Ven., and Russia dont hold US and therefore many of our allies hostage in negotiations that effect the economy later on.

2. We get rid of all sorts of pollution problems. (not even considering CO2 and any warming occuring)

Problem is it is so easy an inexpensive to keep on using Coal and Petroleum (for the moment). Coal will be easy for a long time. In some people's view it in the best interest of our country to bite the bullet now. Government has clearly has been a catalyst for innovation in the past (Conservatives and Republicans can now shudder in horror). I think Obama's group thinks we need to start, and the timing is actually good for various economic reasons
and politcal reasons.

I think this country has little will to see things through. Pain must be felt first. I believe this requires gas nees to go to 4-5 bucks a gallon again. And then further. Russia gets wealthy, Iran wont have social unrest because their economy is rolling, and we start "getting it" again.

Oh heck I can barely read this.
I did not make small newspaper long
sentences.

i absolutely disagree. we're already experiencing pain, with the govt thinking putting us deeper in the debt that got us where we are as some freakish sort of cure. the last thing we need right now is for energy prices to go thru the roof, which will only make our economic problems even larger than they are now. i don't think we lack will-we do however seem to have folks in high places who think we're our own worst enemy, and that we are all the cause of everything wrong is this world-i disagree with that as well. i certainly don't see how 4-5 dollar gas solves anything. gas is and will continue to be a relatively cheap energy source. we've already done a lot to reduce pollution-it would be nice if others, such as china, would follow suit, rather than thinking we can just get cleaner and cleaner, while they do not.

Originally Posted by Danzig

1. i absolutely disagree. we're already experiencing pain, with the govt thinking putting us deeper in the debt that got us where we are as some freakish sort of cure the last thing we need right now is for energy prices to go thru the roof, which will only make our economic problems even larger than they are now.. i don't think we lack will-we do however seem to have folks in high places who think we're our own worst enemy, and that we are all the cause of everything wrong is this world-i disagree with that as well. 2.i certainly don't see how 4-5 dollar gas solves anything. gas is and will continue to be a relatively cheap energy source. we've already done a lot to reduce pollution-it would be nice if others, such as china, would follow suit, rather than thinking we can just get cleaner and cleaner, while they do not.

1. I understand this concern. I do not necessarily disagree. But Obama has economists that do. I just dont know enough. I am stating what I think our current administrations thinking is.

2. This is somewhere around the price that makes alternatives to gasoline cheaper. There is no doubt that passenger vehicles can run effectively off the new technology. Big transport will most likely always require some type of petroleum or hydrocarbon. Electricity will not provide enough power for all transport.

Coal:
Texas is by far the biggest wind producer in the country. It is more expensive right now, but it might let people in San Antonio continue to exercise outside. People just dont get the health concerns with bad air. Look at China. They dont live as long and their people are not as healthy now due to air. They become an economic power house and they also become unhealthy. We need nuclear power, sun and wind where applicable imo. More electric cars or mass transit would also help with the air problem of course.

Bad air is a personal issue for me. Europe has solved this problem a number of times over. We can also.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

1. I understand this concern. I do not necessarily disagree. But Obama has economists that do. I just dont know enough. I am stating what I think our current administrations thinking is.

2. This is somewhere around the price that makes alternatives to gasoline cheaper. There is no doubt that passenger vehicles can run effectively off the new technology. Big transport will most likely always require some type of petroleum or hydrocarbon. Electricity will not provide enough power for all transport.

Coal:
Texas is by far the biggest wind producer in the country. It is more expensive right now, but it might let people in San Antonio continue to exercise outside. People just dont get the health concerns with bad air. Look at China. They dont live as long and their people are not as healthy now due to air. They become an economic power house and they also become unhealthy. We need nuclear power, sun and wind where applicable imo. More electric cars or mass transit would also help with the air problem of course.

Bad air is a personal issue for me. Europe has solved this problem a number of times over. We can also.

I think that air quality is but one issue facing the long term health of the Chinese people.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I think that air quality is but one issue facing the long term health of the Chinese people.

Polluted water ways.
A beautiful example of what unrestricted industry causes.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Polluted water ways.
A beautiful example of what unrestricted industry causes.

yeah and they arent going to change either.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

yeah and they arent going to change either.

Yes they will.
They will be the example for us.
They are experimenting with their environmental health
right now.

They have already made a few coal powered
plants that emit much less CO2 than ours as well as particulate matter. Very expensive though. But they work better than anything we have. So maybe we can Japan them. Steal their ideas and make them less expensive.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I think Obama's group thinks we need to start, and the timing is actually good for various economic reasons
and politcal reasons.

I think this country has little will to see things through. Pain must be felt first. I believe this requires gas nees to go to 4-5 bucks a gallon again. And then further. Russia gets wealthy, Iran wont have social unrest because their economy is rolling, and we start "getting it" again.

Oh heck I can barely read this.
I did not make small newspaper long
sentences.

What exactly is good ecomonically about this again?

And it will be good to have Vladimir Putin and a bunch of crazed militant Ayatollahs have untold wealth? Please NEVER teach social studies EVER!!!

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What exactly is good ecomonically about this again?

And it will be good to have Vladimir Putin and a bunch of crazed militant Ayatollahs have untold wealth? Please NEVER teach social studies EVER!!!

Would you please read my quote again.

The second part is exactly opposite of what Obama's adm. has posited.
The idea is that oil going to levels that are high will FORCE us to use alternative sources (because they are now competitive) which will cause EXACTLY the opposite of what you posted. A painful oil punch will FORCE a switch.

THIS IS WHAT I BELIEVE THE ADMISTRATION BELIEVES.
GET OFF THE OIL.

did i yell?

Do you think our reliance on oil importation is a problem?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Would you please read my quote again.

The second part is exactly opposite of what Obama's adm. has posited.
The idea is that oil going to levels that are high will FORCE us to use alternative sources (because they are now competitive) which will cause EXACTLY the opposite of what you posted. A painful oil punch will FORCE a switch.

THIS IS WHAT I BELIEVE THE ADMISTRATION BELIEVES.
GET OFF THE OIL.

did i yell?

Do you think our reliance on oil importation is a problem?

How is wind or solar energy going to power our cars? You are confusing the issues.

Solar and wind energy are not good large scale sources because it costs way too much to produce. The main reason being that there are only a few areas of the country that have a climate conducive to those alternates and it will cost a fortune to get the energy created to the other areas.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

1. How is wind or solar energy going to power our cars? You are confusing the issues.

2. Solar and wind energy are not good large scale sources because it costs way too much to produce. The main reason being that there are only a few areas of the country that have a climate conducive to those alternates and it will cost a fortune to get the energy created to the other areas.

1. Solar and wind power produce electricity.
Electricity is a source of energy.
Hybrid cars can be charged by electricity.

Do we need to go further?
And who is confusing the issues?

2. No it does not cost way too much to produce if other sources
become more expensive. It costs way too much now because we
buy mostly from foreign companies and we have no infrastructure
set up like we do for oil.

The energy created will cost to move to begin with. Once a grid is set up
which will be expensive, it will not be.


Nuclear energy is clearly a transitional option. You did not mention Nuclear.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

1. Solar and wind power produce electricity.
Electricity is a source of energy.
Hybrid cars can be charged by electricity.

Do we need to go further?
And who is confusing the issues?

2. No it does not cost way too much to produce if other sources
become more expensive. It costs way too much now because we
buy mostly from foreign companies and we have no infrastructure
set up like we do for oil.

The energy created will cost to move to begin with. Once a grid is set up
which will be expensive, it will not be.


Nuclear energy is clearly a transitional option. You did not mention Nuclear.

You honestly think that we can go to electric cars? Not hybrids which are gas cars with little value on highways. Oil is not widely used a an energy source outside of gasoline. I am hardly confusing the issues. You are simply thinking far too simplistically.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You honestly think that we can go to electric cars? Not hybrids which are gas cars with little value on highways. Oil is not widely used a an energy source outside of gasoline. I am hardly confusing the issues. You are simply thinking far too simplistically.

I am thinking simplistically?
You did not even see the link between solar
and wind and cars?

Of course I am thinking hybrids right now.
Because we as a country have not put near
enough research into small light batteries.

I cannot possible say all electric cars would work right
now because of the above.
I think about what needs to happen in the near future.

This is the really interesting thing about conservatives:
On monetary policy, they have a tendency to look long term.
The debt we are putting ourselves into worry them because
of future concerns... my children will inherit this debt and such.

But... when it comes to energy. The shortsightedness is incredible.
I dont get it. Can you explain this? Hardly any research (relative to other expenditures) into batteries.
Yet a huge amount of innovation on how to exploit a resourse (oil)
that is an end game. All these new ways to drill and methods to
detect oil... its bizarre.