There's no stars in racing? Is that right?

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

A lot of these divisional stars running now might be stars ... but they're really low rated stars compared to stars of past years.

As was discussed yesterday on ATR, the 'past year's relation' is a seperate discussion. It's not a matter of valuating the current elite runners versus the elite runners of yesteryear, because this is today and that was yesterday.

Constantly harping that so and so pales in comparison to the Skip Aways of halcyon days of yore only serves to diminish the enjoyment of what we have right now. I don't get the eagerness to do that. And more importantly, it quells newer, younger fans enthusiasm if they constantly hear that the game sucks now by comparison to when "it was great and I was there".

No matter how good they look in their era, Derek Jeter ain't Al Kaline, Miguel Cabrera ain't Roberto Clemente and no one pitching is Bob Gibson, but that doesn't diminish the respective player's current roles as 'stars'.

We're doing ourselves a diservice if we go out of our way to pedestal salad day stars for what we have now.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Kasept

As was discussed yesterday on ATR, the 'past year's relation' is a seperate discussion. It's not a matter of valuating the current elite runners versus the elite runners of yesteryear, because this is today and that was yesterday.

Constantly harping that so and so pales in comparison to the Skip Aways of halcyon days of yore only serves to diminish the enjoyment of what we have right now. I don't get the eagerness to do that. And more importantly, it quells newer, younger fans enthusiasm if they constantly hear that the game sucks now by comparison to when "it was great and I was there".

No matter how good they look in their era, Derek Jeter ain't Al Kaline, Miguel Cabrera ain't Roberto Clemente and no one pitching is Bob Gibson, but that doesn't diminish the respective player's current roles as 'stars'.

Miguel Cabrera is a much better hitter than Clemente and Jeter is likely ranked quite a bit higher historically at his position than Kaline is at his though I will give you Gibson though Randy Johnson while over the hill now probably has had a better overall carer than Gibson. Now if you said Grady Sizemore isnt Mickey Mantle or Ryan Howard isnt Lou Gehrig I would agree.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Miguel Cabrera is a much better hitter than Clemente and Jeter is likely ranked quite a bit higher historically at his position than Kaline is at his though I will give you Gibson though Randy Johnson while over the hill now probably has had a better overall carer than Gibson. Now if you said Grady Sizemore isnt Mickey Mantle or Ryan Howard isnt Lou Gehrig I would agree.

at least we have Hamels and Utley also!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

at least we have Hamels and Utley also!

Utley has a chance to be among the best ever at 2nd. Hamels is good but probably not historically so. While he isnt great there is no better player to watch than Victornio

[docicu3]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Miguel Cabrera is a much better hitter than Clemente and Jeter is likely ranked quite a bit higher historically at his position than Kaline is at his though I will give you Gibson though Randy Johnson while over the hill now probably has had a better overall carer than Gibson. Now if you said Grady Sizemore isnt Mickey Mantle or Ryan Howard isnt Lou Gehrig I would agree.

I ran out of nitro after the Cabrera is a better hitter than Clemente statement......

As you know I respect your knowledge, historical organization and strategic game savy especially in baseball but if your stirring some statistical drink that makes you believe that one of the purest hitters and fielders the game has ever known is somehow inferior to a 5 year .271 hitter we have to get you a mental status evaluation as I fear a screw has come very very loose. Really Chuck,gulp, Cabrera for Clemente..........please 'xplain this one further.

I would never challenge your horse sense, think you actually know quite a bit about hoops as does my famous neighbor who ghosts on the site from time to time but I think your a little over the top on Cabrera's upside.

[slotdirt]

I could see making the case that Cabrera is a better hitter than Clemente, but Cabrera has hit like crap for the better part of a month and is really killing my fantasy team.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by docicu3

I ran out of nitro after the Cabrera is a better hitter than Clemente statement......

As you know I respect your knowledge, historical organization and strategic game savy especially in baseball but if your stirring some statistical drink that makes you believe that one of the purest hitters and fielders the game has ever known is somehow inferior to a 5 year .271 hitter we have to get you a mental status evaluation as I fear a screw has come very very loose. Really Chuck,gulp, Cabrera for Clemente..........please 'xplain this one further.

I would never challenge your horse sense, think you actually know quite a bit about hoops as does my famous neighbor who ghosts on the site from time to time but I think your a little over the top on Cabrera's upside.

You should really think these things over before posting. Cabrera has a .310 lifetime batting average (Clemente is .317). He has 5 straight seasons with over 108 rbi's (Clemente had two 100 rbi seasons in 18 seasons) Cabrera has 186 HR's in roughly 6 seasons (clemente had 240 in 18)
Cabrera's typical season line is .310 with 98 runs 189 hits 40 2bs 32 HR's 119 Rbis .382 OBP .540 slg
Clementes typical season is .317 with 94 runs 200 hits 29 2bs 16 HRs 87 Rbis .359 OBP and .475 slg.

Obviously the eras are different but mitigated by Cabrera playing in poor hitting parks his entire career. And this is also without cabrera reaching his prime late 20's hitting peak. If you took the first 6 years of each player it is embarrasing. Surely Clemente was a better fielder but cabrera is a better hitter.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You should really think these things over before posting. Cabrera has a .310 lifetime batting average (Clemente is .317). He has 5 straight seasons with over 108 rbi's (Clemente had two 100 rbi seasons in 18 seasons) Cabrera has 186 HR's in roughly 6 seasons (clemente had 240 in 18) Cabrera's typical season line is .310 with 98 runs 189 hits 40 2bs 32 HR's 119 Rbis .382 OBP .540 slg Clementes typical season is .317 with 94 runs 200 hits 29 2bs 16 HRs 87 Rbis .359 OBP and .475 slg.

Obviously the eras are different but mitigated by Cabrera playing in poor hitting parks his entire career. And this is also without cabrera reaching his prime late 20's hitting peak. If you took the first 6 years of each player it is embarrasing. Surely Clemente was a better fielder but cabrera is a better hitter.

The reason I used 60's era players was that you cannot fairly compare the two generations. What would Cabrera's HR and RBI numbers be if he played the first half of his career in Forbes Field?

Left Field—360 feet
Deepest corner—462 feet
Center Field—442 feet
Right Field—376 feet

What would Clemente or Kaline have done in an era when the pitching talent is as watered down as it is today?

You can compare horses. No matter how you sugarcoat it. Secretariat would've made Summer Bird look like Mr. Ed last week.

Originally Posted by Cardus

You're out of your friggin' mind. Did you see Summer Bird's explosive last furlong? He would have done OK against Secretariat. He wouldn't have won, but it wouldn't have been the drowning of all drownings.

And, if Mine That Bird had those ridiculous (1:09 4/5 and 1:20 and change) fractions to close into, who knows what could have happened if he ran in the 1973 Belmont?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cardus

You're out of your friggin' mind. Did you see Summer Bird's explosive last furlong? He would have done OK against Secretariat. He wouldn't have won, but it wouldn't have been the drowning of all drownings.

And, if Mine That Bird had those ridiculous (1:09 4/5 and 1:20 and change) fractions to close into, who knows what could have happened if he ran in the 1973 Belmont?

as for the latter, i'm thinking secretariat would have still won by 31.


there are two things todays horses have in common with the best ever. ancestry, and having four legs.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Kasept

The reason I used 60's era players was that you cannot fairly compare the two generations. What would Cabrera's HR and RBI numbers be if he played the first half of his career in Forbes Field?

Left Field—360 feet
Deepest corner—462 feet
Center Field—442 feet
Right Field—376 feet

What would Clemente or Kaline have done in an era when the pitching talent is as watered down as it is today?

We dont know what they would have done, we can only go by what they did. Since Forbes was so cavernous why didnt Clemente hit more doubles and have a higher average as there is a lot more ground to cover? While pitching may be watered down the era of facing fresh relief pitchers and the constant lefty/righty matchups has to be considered as does the closers role.

[docicu3]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You should really think these things over before posting. Cabrera has a .310 lifetime batting average (Clemente is .317). He has 5 straight seasons with over 108 rbi's (Clemente had two 100 rbi seasons in 18 seasons) Cabrera has 186 HR's in roughly 6 seasons (clemente had 240 in 18)
Cabrera's typical season line is .310 with 98 runs 189 hits 40 2bs 32 HR's 119 Rbis .382 OBP .540 slg
Clementes typical season is .317 with 94 runs 200 hits 29 2bs 16 HRs 87 Rbis .359 OBP and .475 slg.

Obviously the eras are different but mitigated by Cabrera playing in poor hitting parks his entire career. And this is also without cabrera reaching his prime late 20's hitting peak. If you took the first 6 years of each player it is embarrasing. Surely Clemente was a better fielder but cabrera is a better hitter.

Moments like this lead me to believe glasses are in order........lol. Look who I thought you were referring to.

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/team/...ayer_id=466320

Thus my response of horror.....Melky and Orlando are a bit different animals I needed to laugh this afternoon as some of what I have seen today is beyond repulsive.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by docicu3

Moments like this lead me to believe glasses are in order........lol. Look who I thought you were referring to.

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/team/...ayer_id=466320

Thus my response of horror.....Melky and Orlando are a bit different animals I needed to laugh this afternoon as some of what I have seen today is beyond repulsive.

Melky can be a bit repulsive

[ddthetide]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Miguel Cabrera is a much better hitter than Clemente

have you completely lost your mind? Roberto was clutch!

i love Einstein! he just shows up and runs his guts out. does whatever he has to, to win. he's star that should be promoted as one.
we can remember the old days but try to root for the stars we have now. or try to make new stars.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ddthetide

have you completely lost your mind? Roberto was clutch!

i love Einstein! he just shows up and runs his guts out. does whatever he has to, to win. he's star that should be promoted as one.
we can remember the old days but try to root for the stars we have now. or try to make new stars.

Clemente was a great player but Cabrera is a better hitter by almost every measure. In 4 or 5 years he will have surpassed Clemente in every meaningful hitting measure while having played 60% of the time RC did.

[ddthetide]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Clemente was a great player but Cabrera is a better hitter by almost every measure. In 4 or 5 years he will have surpassed Clemente in every meaningful hitting measure while having played 60% of the time RC did.

the little baseball i watch, isn't that far above beer league softball, the pitching is terrible.
remember that clemente was on the 1960 battlin bucs that beat the yankees. clemente face Far better pitching, everyday.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ddthetide

the little baseball i watch, isn't that far above beer league softball, the pitching is terrible.
remember that clemente was on the 1960 battlin bucs that beat the yankees. clemente face Far better pitching, everyday.

That is not measurable. Cabrera is a better hitter. Sorry.

[Round Pen]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Clemente was a great player but Cabrera is a better hitter by almost every measure. In 4 or 5 years he will have surpassed Clemente in every meaningful hitting measure while having played 60% of the time RC did.

CHuck Chuck Chuck you need to go look up some statistics before you start making these posts. If Cabrera Plays 10 More seasons he would have to average 200 hits per year to close in on RC 3000 lifetime hits. and in 10 years that would but him at 17 or 18 years service in the big leagues.


No Doubt Cabrera is a good hitter But he strikes out way to Much in fact at his current rate in 5 years (which would make his 11th or 12th season) he will have struck out more times than RC did in 18 seasons

[Bobby Fischer]

Cabrera and Clemente = both wonderful pure hitters that didn't walk enough

I know we are talking stats and not legacy here, but It also goes without saying that Clemente transcends his stats in a way that Cabrera has not even approached yet.