Bailout bill fails

[wiphan]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Good. They deserve it. Gov't doesn't have the money to give. Either have to borrow it, or print it. So, for people (like myself) that have their money in dollars, the last thing we want our Gov't doing is printing more, and destroying 10-20% of our money's value. That's what this would do. Do I care that people won't be able to get loans? I live within my means for operating expenses. I care, but people need to get back to living off the money they have. THIS IS HOPEFULLY THE START OF AMERICANS LIVING WITHIN THEIR MEANS. Not just regular Americans, but the companies that they keep trying to scare everybody with. Everybody needs to wake up, and stop living off credit. I don't do that, and I am in no hurry to bail out companies that say they need credit. Stop giving your CEO 40 million a year while claiming you can't get money to cover daily operating expenses. Tired of it.

YOU JUST DON'T GET IT!

[Danzig]

no, he doesn't. everyone has debt, the point is not to have too much, and to use your available credit wisely.
so, the loans tighten up. folks can't buy houses, cars, whatever. what do you think happens, scuds, to those in the housing and real estate businesses, dealerships, factories, etc, etc? they lose their jobs because the buying well dries up. not everyone can pay cash for every big ticket item they buy. and, like a small snowball that you push over the edge, it just gets larger and larger as it rolls down hill....more jobs lost, less money, and so it goes.

i never thought about this outcome, the bill not passing. back to the drawing board, and hopefully a solution.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Danzig

no, he doesn't. everyone has debt, the point is not to have too much, and to use your available credit wisely.
so, the loans tighten up. folks can't buy houses, cars, whatever. what do you think happens, scuds, to those in the housing and real estate businesses, dealerships, factories, etc, etc? they lose their jobs because the buying well dries up. not everyone can pay cash for every big ticket item they buy. and, like a small snowball that you push over the edge, it just gets larger and larger as it rolls down hill....more jobs lost, less money, and so it goes.

i never thought about this outcome, the bill not passing. back to the drawing board, and hopefully a solution.

I DON'T HAVE DEBT. What will happen? Americans will have to start to live with discipline. Americans need to try it. THIS BILL FAILED, because we are not for pissing away the value of our savings just to socialize the losses of crooks, and people that gambled in the stock market. Be responsible next time. We don't want to socialize these losses. That's just the way it is. If you can't get new loans, then don't buy it. Revolutionary!! We need to correct the way Americans act with money. Start.

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

I DON'T HAVE DEBT. What will happen? Americans will have to start to live with discipline. Americans need to try it. THIS BILL FAILED, because we are not for pissing away the value of our savings just to socialize the losses of crooks, and people that gambled in the stock market. Be responsible next time. We don't want to socialize these losses. That's just the way it is. If you can't get new loans, then don't buy it. Revolutionary!! We need to correct the way Americans act with money. Start.

Yes that'll solve this problem.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

I DON'T HAVE DEBT. What will happen? Americans will have to start to live with discipline. Americans need to try it. THIS BILL FAILED, because we are not for pissing away the value of our savings just to socialize the losses of crooks, and people that gambled in the stock market. Be responsible next time. We don't want to socialize these losses. That's just the way it is. If you can't get new loans, then don't buy it. Revolutionary!! We need to correct the way Americans act with money. Start.

you don't pay a car note, own a house with a mortgage? i have very little debt myself, but i have some all the same. you can make debt work for you-i mean, who can save the tens of thousands of dollars it takes to buy a house so as to avoid a mortgage?
and go tell all the autoworkers they're all out of work, as no one can borrow. yeah, that'll make their day.
and everyone who has a 401k is in the stock market to some degree.

Originally Posted by Danzig

you don't pay a car note, own a house with a mortgage? i have very little debt myself, but i have some all the same. you can make debt work for you-i mean, who can save the tens of thousands of dollars it takes to buy a house so as to avoid a mortgage?
and go tell all the autoworkers they're all out of work, as no one can borrow. yeah, that'll make their day.
and everyone who has a 401k is in the stock market to some degree.

Oh pffft. It's not like all the people who will lose their jobs because of this won't be able to find a new job.

Remember how the sissies reacted to the anthrax scare at the capitol? How is this any different? They can't get anything done, yet people still fervently support their beloved party of choice.

In my lifetime I will witness the fall of the American Empire. Hell...it could be in the next 5 years. We're being governed by morons.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Remember how the sissies reacted to the anthrax scare at the capitol? How is this any different? They can't get anything done, yet people still fervently support their beloved party of choice.

In my lifetime I will witness the fall of the American Empire. Hell...it could be in the next 5 years. We're being governed by morons.

Sad to say but true.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Remember how the sissies reacted to the anthrax scare at the capitol? How is this any different? They can't get anything done, yet people still fervently support their beloved party of choice.

In my lifetime I will witness the fall of the American Empire. Hell...it could be in the next 5 years. We're being governed by morons.

http://www.amazon.com/Are-We-Rome-Em...2719907&sr=8-1

[wiphan]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Remember how the sissies reacted to the anthrax scare at the capitol? How is this any different? They can't get anything done, yet people still fervently support their beloved party of choice.

In my lifetime I will witness the fall of the American Empire. Hell...it could be in the next 5 years. We're being governed by morons.

Isn't that the truth. I think that if this wasn't an election year things would be much different.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Danzig

you don't pay a car note, own a house with a mortgage? i have very little debt myself, but i have some all the same. you can make debt work for you-i mean, who can save the tens of thousands of dollars it takes to buy a house so as to avoid a mortgage?
and go tell all the autoworkers they're all out of work, as no one can borrow. yeah, that'll make their day.
and everyone who has a 401k is in the stock market to some degree.

I am not against people getting loans, but they want to have the same scum (that made these bad loans) be the ones in charge of the loaning. That is an example of repeating the same mistake(which is the definition of the word "stupid.") That's the very 1st thing wrong with this plan. No accountability whatsoever. Give the same crooks more money to loan. No, miss "I want less Gov't," I am not interested in saving the stock market. This a-s-s you voted for wanted to have people putting their social security money in the stock market. He was wrong. Now he has zero crediblity on economic issues whatsoever.

[blackthroatedwind]

I don't really like these debates, but isn't the gist of what SCUDS is saying true? Isn't fiscal irresponsibility by America what pretty much got us into this situation?

I'm basically a bleeding heart liberal, and I'm all for helping out those that need help, but how would this bailout necessarily fall into that category?

[wiphan]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I don't really like these debates, but isn't the gist of what SCUDS is saying true? Isn't fiscal irresponsibility by America what pretty much got us into this situation?

I'm basically a bleeding heart liberal, and I'm all for helping out those that need help, but how would this bailout necessarily fall into that category?

The companies that made the bad loans have already been hurt and they are paying dearly for the fiscal irresponsibility that lead most of them into the situation. The problem is that there are no investors for very good, creditable consumers/businesses due to the issues and problems in the market place. Without the government stepping in and buying a lot of these investments, good honest businesses and consumers will not be able to obtain the financing that they normally could get. The government could actually profit by buying up these securities and some estimates are anywhere from $1-3 trillion yes trillion dollars in profit, by buying and holding these investments; however this depends on what price they buy them at. There is a liquidity crisis in the market that is affecting all financial institutions no matter if they ethically or unethically offered financing. The bailout is not all about letting bad businesses out of their fiscal irresponsible decisions.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I don't really like these debates, but isn't the gist of what SCUDS is saying true? Isn't fiscal irresponsibility by America what pretty much got us into this situation?

I'm basically a bleeding heart liberal, and I'm all for helping out those that need help, but how would this bailout necessarily fall into that category?

yeah, the kernel in that post is true, it is rampant spending/borrowing that got us into this mess.
however, we have to find a way OUT of the mess, or it will only get tremendously worse.
do we need to spend 700 billion to do it? that i'm not so sure of.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

I am not against people getting loans, but they want to have the same scum (that made these bad loans) be the ones in charge of the loaning. That is an example of repeating the same mistake(which is the definition of the word "stupid.")

Actually the major banks that are still standing survived because THEY DIDNT do the crazy lending for the most part.

Bank of America, Chase, Wells and Citi DID NOT offer neg am loans which were the worst. Wells dipped their feet into some subprime but not to the level of the investment banks that are tumbling left are right.

Of those banks named, the only real exposure they have left is to high LTV mezz financing and some ALT A.

In plain English, these banks didnt do they bad lending for the most part.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

I am not against people getting loans, but they want to have the same scum (that made these bad loans) be the ones in charge of the loaning. That is an example of repeating the same mistake(which is the definition of the word "stupid.") That's the very 1st thing wrong with this plan. No accountability whatsoever. Give the same crooks more money to loan. No, miss "I want less Gov't," I am not interested in saving the stock market. This a-s-s you voted for wanted to have people putting their social security money in the stock market. He was wrong. Now he has zero crediblity on economic issues whatsoever.

it's still not that simple. you have the lender, and the person who sought the loan. then you have the lender who then sells the mortgages as an asset to an investor. then you have the loan fail, the bank stuck with the house, and an investor who 'owns' a note on a house that's worth far less than the house itself. now mulitply that by hundreds of thousands. so, banks retreat and tighten the credit market. except for those with excellent credit, loans will not occur. multiply that by millions. you've just cut off the spending power of tens of millions of people.
so, ignore the problem and tell everyone to change their habits-that solves no problem. well, it won't matter if nothing is done, as so many people will be out of work, they won't be able to buy anything anyway.

part of the bailout was supposed to include more regulatory measures as well.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Danzig

you don't pay a car note, own a house with a mortgage? i have very little debt myself, but i have some all the same. you can make debt work for you-i mean, who can save the tens of thousands of dollars it takes to buy a house so as to avoid a mortgage?
and go tell all the autoworkers they're all out of work, as no one can borrow. yeah, that'll make their day.
and everyone who has a 401k is in the stock market to some degree.

I keep fixing up my '87 Honda Civic(actually it's a very popular model,) and 2000 Ford Focus. Most new cars are overpriced, and most people can't afford them. So, they get loans. If they didn't get loans, then car prices would be lower. Cars would have to be sold for what people can afford(rather than what they can get somebody to give them a loan for.) Houses would never have been as expensive if prices hadn't been pushed up artificially by mortgage companies wanting to make more n' more interest n' fees off loans they shouldn't have offered. Now, it's a bad thing that people have to live within their means? I don't think so. Fewer loans will result in lower prices, and you wouldn't have to always pay a bunch of money to loan companies. If only reasonable loans were made, then houses would be more affordable. We have to get off the easy credit baby bottle. That's what this really is all about, and people don't want to give that baby bottle up easily. We must do that. I'm not talking about stuff like student loans. I mean car loans, house loans, and high interest credit cards.

I just want money to be able to flow.
I do not want to see children and older folks hurt by this.
Some of the older folks live on fixed incomes that rely
on a mixture of stocks and bonds being sold. I dont want
them to suffer.

I do not want to see poorer folks with kids to raise lose jobs
because the economy grinds to a halt. Its already tough enough. Jobs
are going away every month now. This will not help.

We got to free up money. If every one just wraps their arms around
what little they may have, and hunker down... Time for Coop vegetable
gardens and chickens in the back yard. Worked in college. People well off
will not starve.

I have to believe some sort of bill comes through so that
money does not to stagnate and rot.

[wiphan]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

I DON'T HAVE DEBT. What will happen? Americans will have to start to live with discipline. Americans need to try it. THIS BILL FAILED, because we are not for pissing away the value of our savings just to socialize the losses of crooks, and people that gambled in the stock market. Be responsible next time. We don't want to socialize these losses. That's just the way it is. If you can't get new loans, then don't buy it. Revolutionary!! We need to correct the way Americans act with money. Start.

Your right, we should all work, save our $ and put it under our mattress in our rented house and as soon as we save $200,000+(depending on where you live) we can look at buying that home. I will need to buy a gun and protect my house and my cash for fear of theives because I can not insure the cash that I have saved because I can't use an insurance company, etc. and if my home happens to burn down, flood, or be robbed I lose everything I worked for and I have to start over. Your system works awesome! I am not sure why I didn't think of it first.