Wayne Catalano-Frank Calebrese

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

and what happens when their horses are claimed away? hmmm
proof that they're moved up is that they all drop off drastically when they're done with them.

Here are some nice stats for you:


Since 2003 horses claimed by Catalano (next start):
35% wins and 67% in the money
(385 starters. 136 wins and 257 in the money)

Since 2003 horses claimed away from Catalano (next start):
9% wins and 39% in the money
(479 starters. 44 wins and 187 in the money)

[MISTERGEE]

only one explanation
catalano=miracle worker

Jamie Ness owns Catasoprano.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

Here are some nice stats for you:


Since 2003 horses claimed by Catalano (next start):
35% wins and 67% in the money
(385 starters. 136 wins and 257 in the money)

Since 2003 horses claimed away from Catalano (next start):
9% wins and 39% in the money
(479 starters. 44 wins and 187 in the money)

I was going to stay out of this one, but I just wanted to clarify one item. The results should not be justified by statistical data like the above. I am not saying they are saints, and I am not saying they are sinners. I am not saying either, although plenty of people absent of facts seem to be willing to do so.

The statistics are distorted, and if you need someone to explain why, then this is a futile discussion. Pick up a condition book and you can read why.

By the way -- does anyone know when was the last time Catalano got a positive test? What about a "high" test?

Eric

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by ELA

I was going to stay out of this one, but I just wanted to clarify one item. The results should not be justified by statistical data like the above. I am not saying they are saints, and I am not saying they are sinners. I am not saying either, although plenty of people absent of facts seem to be willing to do so.

The statistics are distorted, and if you need someone to explain why, then this is a futile discussion. Pick up a condition book and you can read why.

By the way -- does anyone know when was the last time Catalano got a positive test? What about a "high" test?

Eric

This gibberish means zero to me. Just silly talk.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by ELA

I was going to stay out of this one, but I just wanted to clarify one item. The results should not be justified by statistical data like the above. I am not saying they are saints, and I am not saying they are sinners. I am not saying either, although plenty of people absent of facts seem to be willing to do so.

The statistics are distorted, and if you need someone to explain why, then this is a futile discussion. Pick up a condition book and you can read why.

By the way -- does anyone know when was the last time Catalano got a positive test? What about a "high" test?

Eric

Exactly

and I would think the claimed away win % is getting higher as there aren't as many who will claim off a Cat/Cal claim and drop anymore

[ELA]

Originally Posted by GBBob

Exactly

and I would think the claimed away win % is getting higher as there aren't as many who will claim off a Cat/Cal claim and drop anymore

Good point. Let's not get into too much detail, LOL. Also, think about it this way. Look at "how" they point toward a meet and "where" they claim (not geographically of course). It's no secret. If I was them, I'd be sleeping outside the race office the night before the proof comes out. They probably get an advanced copy of the proof. If I was a race secretary, I'd give it to them. Anyway, now look at when the meet starts how they wheel back after they claim. More people end up having to claim off the rise than the drop -- but it can't be on out of town horses. The other piece is a bit more more cure.

Eric

[Scav]

Originally Posted by ELA

I was going to stay out of this one, but I just wanted to clarify one item. The results should not be justified by statistical data like the above. I am not saying they are saints, and I am not saying they are sinners. I am not saying either, although plenty of people absent of facts seem to be willing to do so.

The statistics are distorted, and if you need someone to explain why, then this is a futile discussion. Pick up a condition book and you can read why.

By the way -- does anyone know when was the last time Catalano got a positive test? What about a "high" test?

Eric

Eric, excellent point about him getting a positive, to my recollection, he has never recieved a positive test. But I do not think Illinois tests for milkshaking

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Scav

Eric, excellent point about him getting a positive, to my recollection, he has never recieved a positive test. But I do not think Illinois tests for milkshaking

I don't know if they do. Someone told me that IL has the back box for harness racing, but again, I don't know. Is it possible they have it for harness and not the flats? Of course. Here in NJ (at the Meadowlands), they got the black box for harness years before it went in to effect for the flats. I never understood why the two don't work together . . . oh yeah, that's right, this is the horse racing industry, LOL.

Here in NJ, it appears the harness industry has made far more progress on "catching" cheaters. I think they are still doing a lot of barking absent of biting, but they are getting better. Catching is one aspect, but enforcement is just as important.

I am sure this will open another Pandora's box of an arguement, however, regardless, I don't care what anyone says -- milkshaking is not getting these guys the results they are getting. Meet after meet, track after track, different states, on track from what I gather, surprise visit(s), and so on.

Eric

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Folks,this is supposed to be about an entertainment product. In this case(horseracing,) the entertainment being sold is a product called competition. If you don't have competition,then you don't have something to sell. People are standing around waiting until something competitive does happen. Regardless of whether you think these 2 people are right or wrong,they are hurting the entertainment value of this sport.The sport would be much better off if they replaced these uncompetitive races with competitive ones. When it gets boring enough,then they will have to do something about it.The competitive races are subsidizing these uncompetitive displays these two are putting on. That's the truth.You can say they are within the rules etc. etc., but most people go to the track to watch competition.They just put up with these boring races in order to finally get to the competive ones. They are paying these two, and these two are not providing anything entertaining in return. They just provide boring mismatches, and it is not good for the entertainment value of this sport. At some point, people are gunna wake up, and realize that they need to provide a more entertaining product than what these two offer up.

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Folks,this is supposed to be about an entertainment product. In this case(horseracing,) the entertainment being sold is a product called competition. If you don't have competition,then you don't have something to sell. People are standing around waiting until something competitive does happen. Regardless of whether you think these 2 people are right or wrong,they are hurting the entertainment value of this sport.The sport would be much better off if they replaced these uncompetitive races with competitive ones. When it gets boring enough,then they will have to do something about it.The competitive races are subsidizing these uncompetitive displays these two are putting on. That's the truth.You can say they are within the rules etc. etc., but most people go to the track to watch competition.They just put up with these boring races in order to finally get to the competive ones. They are paying these two, and these two are not providing anything entertaining in return. They just provide boring mismatches, and it is not good for the entertainment value of this sport. At some point, people are gunna wake up, and realize that they need to provide a more entertaining product than what these two offer up.

THis is a track problem. I would take a close look at purse value v. claiming price. Properly set up races can take care of this problem. But it might be they also want to fill up fields. There obviously are all sorts of ways to set up a meet depending on what the track expects will be coming to race in order to provide a "product". If these guys are taking advantage of purse value v. claiming price, all the more power to them if they are not cheating. It is the tracks responsibility to set up competitive races while at the same time working with the horsemen that come to race.

What size of barn do these guys have compared to other trainers at Arlington? If they are bringing lots of animals and filling cards and stalls... The other trainers can run elsewhere if the condition book is lopsided.

[reese]

Originally Posted by ELA

I was going to stay out of this one, but I just wanted to clarify one item. The results should not be justified by statistical data like the above. I am not saying they are saints, and I am not saying they are sinners. I am not saying either, although plenty of people absent of facts seem to be willing to do so.

The statistics are distorted, and if you need someone to explain why, then this is a futile discussion. Pick up a condition book and you can read why.

By the way -- does anyone know when was the last time Catalano got a positive test? What about a "high" test?

Eric

Clearly,you feel strongly all ways Thanks for clarifying that.

Who can definitively say that Arl tests all horses vigorously for all drugs and CO2 levels. Do they have a detention barn like nyra?

I think the before and after stats tell the REAL story. Reminds me of Lake and Shumen. Lake USED to have gaudy win % in NY UNTIL nyra instituted the detention barn and began testing all. Lake had one runner in NY this year that I can remember...gee wonder why

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by reese

Clearly,you feel strongly all ways Thanks for clarifying that.

Who can definitively say that Arl tests all horses vigorously for all drugs and CO2 levels. Do they have a detention barn like nyra?

I think the before and after stats tell the REAL story. Reminds me of Lake and Shumen. Lake USED to have gaudy win % in NY UNTIL nyra instituted the detention barn and began testing all. Lake had one runner in NY this year that I can remember...gee wonder why

Maybe because he can run at Philly park, Delaware and Presque isle for similar money and less competition? The detention barn is far from the answer. Do you think NY test all horses vigorously for all drugs?

[MISTERGEE]

marty wolfson and wesly ward are both at about 50% at calder

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

everyone knows lake is a hay ,oats ,water,guy..

[jwkniska]

Originally Posted by MISTERGEE

marty wolfson and wesly ward are both at about 50% at calder

wolfson got busted at ap a couple of years ago in a stakes race... had to give the first place $$ back... and said he'd never ship to ap again.
forget the horse's name, but won a race that killed my pick 3 on million preview day.

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by jwkniska

wolfson got busted at ap a couple of years ago in a stakes race... had to give the first place $$ back... and said he'd never ship to ap again.
forget the horse's name, but won a race that killed my pick 3 on million preview day.

Cant Beat It. He is currently toiling at Woodbine for malcolm Pierce.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by jwkniska

wolfson got busted at ap a couple of years ago in a stakes race... had to give the first place $$ back... and said he'd never ship to ap again.
forget the horse's name, but won a race that killed my pick 3 on million preview day.

The name of the horse was Can't Beat It (I think). The horse got DQ'ed from second in the American Derby. I think the horse came back positive for more than one drug. I don't remember which drug(s). The horse then came back in his first start after the Arlington race and won the Calder Derby (I think).

The horse was owned by Charlotte Weber and she appealed the ruling(s). I don't know the final outcome, or the details of the case, but I am sure someone here does.

Eric

[reese]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Maybe because he can run at Philly park, Delaware and Presque isle for similar money and less competition? The detention barn is far from the answer. Do you think NY test all horses vigorously for all drugs?

Do You think Presque Isles, Phil, Del test for drugs ?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by reese

Do You think Presque Isles, Phil, Del test for drugs ?

The state of PA tests for drugs not tracks. I guess you missed the Larry Jones clembuterol case in Delaware? If you had a clue how the system works your opinions would carry more weight.