Dr. Kevorkian to run for Congress.......

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

So you've never put a pet down?

Again, what I have or have not done is not the point...to repeat, I have free will and I make decisions and live with the consequences. Have I put a pet down? Yes, but not without much personal agony. I believe animals have souls but I also believe that man has dominion over animals...not so other human beings. If my dog could communicate with me, I would honor his/her request but since they can't, I make the decision...and I accept any consequences. That's my point here...if a person decides to end their life, they are responsible for that act; if someone else decides to end it for them, they are responsible for same. Having the government legalize the act removes the responsibility legally but not morally and at the same time sends a clear message about the sanctity of life!

[dr. fager]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

If my dog could communicate with me, I would honor his/her request but since they can't, I make the decision...and I accept any consequences. That's my point here...if a person decides to end their life, they are responsible for that act; if someone else decides to end it for them, they are responsible for same.

that wasn't personal that was euthanasia for pets, I should have generalized.

but it still doesn't add up, if a dog could talk you'd honor the request....but if a person asks you wouldn't....

consequences, huh? like that bootleg move of picking up Willie Parker and stooping to the level of the idiots in the fantasy league when you were up against someone that was playing by the rules.....

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

that wasn't personal that was euthanasia for pets, I should have generalized.

but it still doesn't add up, if a dog could talk you'd honor the request....but if a person asks you wouldn't....

consequences, huh? like that bootleg move of picking up Willie Parker and stooping to the level of the idiots in the fantasy league when you were up against someone that was playing by the rules.....

the first segue from Euthanasia to fantasy football ever noted

[SentToStud]

I'm with B.W.S. on this. If they could do it themselves, they would.

Live and let live. Or, otherwise.

[dr. fager]

Originally Posted by GBBob

the first segue from Euthanasia to fantasy football ever noted

threads like this need some levity....in my eyes....

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Didn't "UNCLE BILL" shoot himself? You people saying that's cool,but if you're in a hospital ya gotta suffer until you hallucinate etc.?

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

but it still doesn't add up, if a dog could talk you'd honor the request....but if a person asks you wouldn't....

You must remember that dogs are different than people.

People need to be told what to do, but dogs could make up their own minds.

Or maybe it's just on a case-by-case basis, and Somer inadvertantly forget to tell us that the dog he was specifically talking about was this one, and would therefore have been qualified to make decisions for himself.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by dr. fager

that wasn't personal that was euthanasia for pets, I should have generalized.

but it still doesn't add up, if a dog could talk you'd honor the request....but if a person asks you wouldn't....

consequences, huh? like that bootleg move of picking up Willie Parker and stooping to the level of the idiots in the fantasy league when you were up against someone that was playing by the rules.....

Again, you miss the point....if my dog asked me to end his life and I saw he was suffering, I would...and I would accept any and all consequences for my action. If a person asked me...I would have to make a PERSONAL decision, how could I (or even you) know what I (or you) would do? I am opposed to the concept and would never take my own life, nor would I be so demanding of another to ask them to do so, but if I was placed in that situation by someone else...well, then the decision would be mine alone to make....therein lies my point, it would be MY responsibility not the government's...and, if I did do what was requested of me, I would do so against my beliefs and with the expectation that I would pay the consequences! Life is about decisions and the consequences of making them...and Willie Parker broke his leg immediately after I picked him up and placed him in my lineup so I paid the price of losing 20 + points that week...exactly what I deserved!

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

but if I was placed in that situation by someone else...well, then the decision would be mine alone to make....therein lies my point, it would be MY responsibility not the government's...and, if I did do what was requested of me, I would do so against my beliefs and with the expectation that I would pay the consequences!

The only government that allows this (Oregon's) feels exactly the way you do. They do not mandate that physicians participate in the Death With Dignity Act; a patient must find a doctor who does and they have no recourse to force a doctor to go along with it.

So, the government is not making a decision for anyone, or imposing any decision on anyone -- they are simply saying that you (patient & doctor individually) have the right to make your own decisions.

What's the harm in that? Nobody has to do anything they don't want to. So, if that's not enough, please reassure me that those who oppose physician-assisted suicide do so from a genuine place that is not about controlling other people.

[pdrift1]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

The only government that allows this (Oregon's) feels exactly the way you do. They do not mandate that physicians participate in the Death With Dignity Act; a patient must find a doctor who does and they have no recourse to force a doctor to go along with it.

So, the government is not making a decision for anyone, or imposing any decision on anyone -- they are simply saying that you (patient & doctor individually) have the right to make your own decisions.

What's the harm in that? Nobody has to do anything they don't want to. So, if that's not enough, please reassure me that those who oppose physician-assisted suicide do so from a genuine place that is not about controlling other people.

couldn't agree more

[pdrift1]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Again, you miss the point....if my dog asked me to end his life and I saw he was suffering, I would...and I would accept any and all consequences for my action. If a person asked me...I would have to make a PERSONAL decision, how could I (or even you) know what I (or you) would do? I am opposed to the concept and would never take my own life, nor would I be so demanding of another to ask them to do so, but if I was placed in that situation by someone else...well, then the decision would be mine alone to make....therein lies my point, it would be MY responsibility not the government's...and, if I did do what was requested of me, I would do so against my beliefs and with the expectation that I would pay the consequences! Life is about decisions and the consequences of making them...and Willie Parker broke his leg immediately after I picked him up and placed him in my lineup so I paid the price of losing 20 + points that week...exactly what I deserved!

working in the psych field , you should know better then anyone that people can have a nervous breakdown or just lose it. some people can seem at one point in thier life to have it together and say those same words and later something may change. i know that i say i wouldnt either .but i would be foolish to realisticly think someday something could go seriously wrong ,but what do our futures hold for us or for others. why do we always question and say -i never thought they would do that-or they seemed happy. the brain is one of the last undiscovered frontiers in med, and doesnt get the funding it deserves, we know very little about it . my point being never say never. you just don't know........i'm sure some of the young men before they left for iraq didn't plan on co,ming home and commiting suicide either. and its a alarming amount-as one example

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by pdrift1

working in the psych field , you should know better then anyone that people can have a nervous breakdown or just lose it. some people can seem at one point in thier life to have it together and say those same words and later something may change. i know that i say i wouldnt either .but i would be foolish to realisticly think someday something could go seriously wrong ,but what do our futures hold for us or for others. why do we always question and say -i never thought they would do that-or they seemed happy. the brain is one of the last undiscovered frontiers in med, and doesnt get the funding it deserves, we know very little about it . my point being never say never. you just don't know........i'm sure some of the young men before they left for iraq didn't plan on co,ming home and commiting suicide either. and its a alarming amount-as one example

I'll grant you that...never say never....but my convictions require me to say that...I feel very strongly and simply HAVE to believe I'd never sink so low mentally and spiritually to do myself in....but your point is well made.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Again, what I have or have not done is not the point...to repeat, I have free will and I make decisions and live with the consequences. Have I put a pet down? Yes, but not without much personal agony. I believe animals have souls but I also believe that man has dominion over animals...not so other human beings. If my dog could communicate with me, I would honor his/her request but since they can't, I make the decision...and I accept any consequences. That's my point here...if a person decides to end their life, they are responsible for that act; if someone else decides to end it for them, they are responsible for same. Having the government legalize the act removes the responsibility legally but not morally and at the same time sends a clear message about the sanctity of life!

I dont think you understand what assisted suicide is. People who are in too much pain or do not have the functions to commit it, but want to end their pain, have someone like Dr. K assist them.

You saying "if someone else dicides to end it for them" is completely off base because the assistant is NOT deciding this, they are just helping with someones wishes.

I really have no idea how you and Cajun dont get this.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

I dont think you understand what assisted suicide is. People who are in too much pain or do not have the functions to commit it, but want to end their pain, have someone like Dr. K assist them.

You saying "if someone else dicides to end it for them" is completely off base because the assistant is NOT deciding this, they are just helping with someones wishes.

I really have no idea how you and Cajun dont get this.

Again, you are simplifying a complex issue....DR K has free will like the rest of us...he made the decision to end someone's life and he alone is responsible for the consequences. Just because someone asks you to do something changes nothing about free will...you, and you alone, make the decision! I worked 35 years with mentally ill folks and folks in all kinds of pain...seen far more suffering than anyone should have to...to suggest that I don't care about folk's pain is just wrong! When I worked in Piney Mt Nursing Home as Director of Soc Services, the first battle I fought was that the home REQUIRED every new admission to have a living will and that doctors...IN MY PRESENCE would often call family members and literally demand that they, as power of attorney, change wills that requested "heroic mesures" to DNR orders...if that's not deciding for someone, often against their expressed desires, I don't know what is??? And that is without government sanctioned euthanasia! Forgive me if I see this as somewhat forbodding!

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

I dont think you understand what assisted suicide is. People who are in too much pain or do not have the functions to commit it, but want to end their pain, have someone like Dr. K assist them.

You saying "if someone else dicides to end it for them" is completely off base because the assistant is NOT deciding this, they are just helping with someones wishes.

I really have no idea how you and Cajun dont get this.

Dr. K provided the means, but with the exception of a couple of cases, was not the one who actually DID it.

"The individuals themselves allegedly took the final action which resulted in their own deaths. Kevorkian allegedly assisted only by attaching the individual to a device that he had made. The individual then pushed a button which released the drugs or chemicals that would end his or her own life."