Israel suspending air bombing

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

we support israel because it's a democracy surrounded by countries that are anything but. it's falls in line completely with our support of other democracies. plus america always tends to support the underdog. probably because we haven't forgotten we were once the underdog not so long ago--we're a bunch of mutts really...
also, the jewish people are without a doubt the most vilified, hated, victimized people this world has EVER seen. every plague, war, famine, etc that struck euro countries over the centuries--when the going got tough, guess who was turned into the scapegoat? banished from countries, children taken to be raised the 'right way' in christian households, while parents were killed. and this has been for two thousand-odd years. this isn't something new that hitler started.


losing a crusade? go home and kill the jews in your cities.
losing the hundred years war? can't beat france/england/spain/portugal? hanseatic league giving you fits? prussia? see above...

the israelis should be left alone to live in peace, rather than constantly dealing with all their neighbors wanting nothing more than their complete annihilation.

Danzig,
I certainly agree with you. Not to mention the Inquisition in Spain, and so many other atrocities that have been committed against Jewish (Hebrew) people.
Unfortunately, now they are seen to be the "aggressors". It is seen by many that they are doing to others as has been done to them.
I don't think they'll turn the other cheek, or learn to "love" their enemies.
They've heard it before and rejected that advice.
In fact, the messanger of those words of wisdom was killed in a horrible manner.
So, back to my question...
"What would YOU do to end this insanity?"

[Danzig]

move?

no, seriously...

first of all, we can't base our foreign policy on whether we will be liked by others for our decisions. we have to do what's right. not necessarily what is expedient or popular. in a nutshell, as long as we support israel we will be hated by arabs. it's that simple. if we are the only think separating israel from annihilation, then we stay the course.

i heard mention of a dmz, that's a start. also, we say we don't want to 'nation build' but a bit of that would go a long way in lebanon--they must have a legitimate govt in order to take any kind of control.

the un being what it is, i'd be more comfortable if nato stepped in instead.

israel has been thru, what, five wars in it's short life? that's crazy. they gave so much a few years ago, but arafat backed out--he and many others don't want a deal. they don't want palestine, they want israel GONE. how do you deal with that? there's no common ground to be reached.

Originally Posted by Danzig188

move?

no, seriously...

first of all, we can't base our foreign policy on whether we will be liked by others for our decisions. we have to do what's right. not necessarily what is expedient or popular. in a nutshell, as long as we support israel we will be hated by arabs. it's that simple. if we are the only think separating israel from annihilation, then we stay the course.

i heard mention of a dmz, that's a start. also, we say we don't want to 'nation build' but a bit of that would go a long way in lebanon--they must have a legitimate govt in order to take any kind of control.

the un being what it is, i'd be more comfortable if nato stepped in instead.

israel has been thru, what, five wars in it's short life? that's crazy. they gave so much a few years ago, but arafat backed out--he and many others don't want a deal. they don't want palestine, they want israel GONE. how do you deal with that? there's no common ground to be reached.

I am all for supporting Israel, just not with my money. Do they not have their own money? Please explain to me what the US gets out of supporting Israel. And for the record, we don't support Israel because we are good people, we support them because their lobby, the lobby of a foreign country, has bought into our government, no different than tobacco, alcohol, guns lobby, etc.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by boldruler

I am all for supporting Israel, just not with my money. Do they not have their own money? Please explain to me what the US gets out of supporting Israel. And for the record, we don't support Israel because we are good people, we support them because their lobby, the lobby of a foreign country, has bought into our government, no different than tobacco, alcohol, guns lobby, etc.

why is this so hard for people to comprehend?

This whole "spreading democracy" or "preserving democracy" thing is one of the biggest shams ever. Do people really believe the US govt cares what system a country uses as long as our ships are sailing in the same direction?

Originally Posted by dalakhani

why is this so hard for people to comprehend?

This whole "spreading democracy" or "preserving democracy" thing is one of the biggest shams ever. Do people really believe the US govt cares what system a country uses as long as our ships are sailing in the same direction?

Yes we care on the whole. We would like people all over the world to be able to worship as they please, enjoy a successful life based merit, and vote for their own leaders... and much more. We dont like Saudi Arabia's govt. but we put up with it because their is nothing to replace it at the moment. Democracy might not work as a system in some countries, but the right of human freedom and dignity has a Judeo-Christian foundation that makes total sense to most of the world. It has spread because it is morally sound.

You can be a cynical as you want, but overall this is what we strive for although we have made many mistakes and dont follow our own ideals sometimes. We are hardly perfect. But the basics are clear.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Yes we care on the whole. We would like people all over the world to be able to worship as they please, enjoy a successful life based merit, and vote for their own leaders... and much more. We dont like Saudi Arabia's govt. but we put up with it because their is nothing to replace it at the moment. Democracy might not work as a system in some countries, but the right of human freedom and dignity has a Judeo-Christian foundation that makes total sense to most of the world. It has spread because it is morally sound.

You can be a cynical as you want, but overall this is what we strive for although we have made many mistakes and dont follow our own ideals sometimes. We are hardly perfect. But the basics are clear.

If this is true then why are there so many examples of leadership that the US has not only supported but also implemented that stray so far from your stated "ideals"?

You can be as idealistic if you like (or rather naive) but the proof is more on my side than on yours.

America over the last 60 years has looked out more times than not for her own interests first. Whether it be politically or financially dont be mistaken that our interests have come first and more times than not financial interests, whether individual or national, have driven American policy.

I find nothing at all wrong with America looking out for herself first. The problem i have is with the politicians spinning it into this "we are the world" thing and the mindless sheep that actually believe this bull****.

Originally Posted by boldruler

I am all for supporting Israel, just not with my money. Do they not have their own money? Please explain to me what the US gets out of supporting Israel. And for the record, we don't support Israel because we are good people, we support them because their lobby, the lobby of a foreign country, has bought into our government, no different than tobacco, alcohol, guns lobby, etc.

A democracy and the rule of law, in the middle of tyrannical Oil governments and impoverished killing machines. How many times does this need to be repeated. That is what we get. You dont like that. Tough luck. I dont like my money going certain places either. Vote for a president and Congress that supports tyranny abroad. Good luck finding candidates... check that, Pat Buchanan is your man.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by pgardn

A democracy and the rule of law, in the middle of tyrannical Oil governments and impoverished killing machines. How many times does this need to be repeated. That is what we get. You dont like that. Tough luck. I dont like my money going certain places either. Vote for a president and Congress that supports tyranny abroad. Good luck finding candidates... check that, Pat Buchanan is your man.

Such as Eisenhower, kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, et al?

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Such as Eisenhower, kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, et al?

We have propped up highly tyrannical governments in the past. Made some horrible mistakes as long as countries gave us what we needed or just plain would bend to our will. We have learned the hard way that does not work.

Everyone of those president you just mentioned played an important role in constantly badgering the largest country in the world to clean up their act. Constantly, with no gain whatsoever on our part other than getting individuals released because of religious or political persecution. IN fact it is to our detriment to keep badgering China. But we do it anyway.

Name a country with more people than China that we have done the opposite.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by pgardn

We have propped up highly tyrannical governments in the past. Made some horrible mistakes as long as countries gave us what we needed or just plain would bend to our will. We have learned the hard way that does not work.

Everyone of those president you just mentioned played an important role in constantly badgering the largest country in the world to clean up their act. Constantly, with no gain whatsoever on our part other than getting individuals released because of religious or political persecution. IN fact it is to our detriment to keep badgering China. But we do it anyway.

Name a country with more people than China that we have done the opposite.

Sorry pal. You seem like an intelligent guy but this is a pretty dumb question. Think about it.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by boldruler

I am all for supporting Israel, just not with my money. Do they not have their own money? Please explain to me what the US gets out of supporting Israel. And for the record, we don't support Israel because we are good people, we support them because their lobby, the lobby of a foreign country, has bought into our government, no different than tobacco, alcohol, guns lobby, etc.

well how else do you support a country than with money???
where's your outrage for all the other countries we send money to? did you know that til 9/11 afghanistan was our #1 recipient of u.s. aid? fat lot of good that did us, huh? what about most favored nation trading status granted to china? does that burn your butt? or is it just israel that ticks you off? what about funding public schools? you don't have kids do you? what about interstates? do you drive on them all? i mean, why does hawaii have an interstate? what a waste of my money...

Originally Posted by Danzig188

well how else do you support a country than with money???
where's your outrage for all the other countries we send money to? did you know that til 9/11 afghanistan was our #1 recipient of u.s. aid? fat lot of good that did us, huh? what about most favored nation trading status granted to china? does that burn your butt? or is it just israel that ticks you off? what about funding public schools? you don't have kids do you? what about interstates? do you drive on them all? i mean, why does hawaii have an interstate? what a waste of my money...

You support them in things like the UN, which we already do. I don't need to give them my tax dollar to support them.

I have tremendous outrage when it comes to the US giving money to any country unless it is humanitarian. I have much more dislike of Mexico and China than I do Israel. Mexico and China actually cost americans jobs and Israel just sucks up my tax dollar.

As for public schools, they are underfunded because I am sending billions that should be going to public schools to countries like Israel, who should raise their own taxes, not take my money. As for your other comments, I don't like money being wasted at all, but I rather have it wasted on my country than another country like Israel or Egypt.

Here we go again with the money.

The Space Shuttle is an incredible waste of money... trying to keep humans alive instead of sending more probes out in which we could learn a whole lot more. The list goes on and on. We have throughout our history supplied money to foreign countries for many reasons. The money given to these countries is a drop in the bucket compared to health care and military expenditures. Do you think all of that money is used efficiently?

Originally Posted by pgardn

Here we go again with the money.

The Space Shuttle is an incredible waste of money... trying to keep humans alive instead of sending more probes out in which we could learn a whole lot more. The list goes on and on. We have throughout our history supplied money to foreign countries for many reasons. The money given to these countries is a drop in the bucket compared to health care and military expenditures. Do you think all of that money is used efficiently?

No, but it is Americans and American tax dollars being wasted on these silly little countries is a joke. It is not America's job to buy a military for ever silly little country on earth.