Go Israel

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Really? I can think of a number of other countries that couldnt find their way against worse tyrannies and bullies than the ones that Israel faces.

Why didnt we help the people of Cambodia against Pol Pot or there oppressive neighbors? All we did was bomb them.

Why didnt we help all of those eastern bloc countries in the fifties when all they had were rocks?

Why dont we help the palestinians whose land is being constantly encroached upon by...Israeli settlers????LOL

Why dont we help some of the neighbors to china?

Why is all of this money pouring into Israel?

Question still unanswered.

It's simply not possible for the US to be a one stop solution to every despotic regime. If ideology alone is your guide you'll end up being pushed into entanglements everywhere in the world at once that would surely bankrupt us. This one solution fits all approach is reckless and could lead to horrible results. When the bullies and tyrants are actually clients of nuclear powers you do not rush in to topple these regimes unless you're ready for an all out world war. No, foreign policy has to be more pragmatic using policies crafted specifically for the situation especially when it comes under the spheres of influence of China and the former Soviet Union.

Supporting Israel like we have is cheap and effective compared to the alternatives. This was not an option in the fifties in eastern europe.

And supporting China's neighboring states like we do Israel, just because we do not like everything China does, is not an option at this point unless we just want to chuck our entire relations with China. No we're in an ecomomic war with China and we need for our own benefit to be engaged with them directly and not trying to set a neighboring state against them.

There are always bullies and thugs around and sometimes there are no better solutions than to be cozy with them for strategic reasons. Its not always clear what the better alternative is and sitting on the sideline without a chip in the game or any influence has it's drawbacks as well.

That's my $.02 anyway.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

It's simply not possible for the US to be a one stop solution to every despotic regime. If ideology alone is your guide you'll end up being pushed into entanglements everywhere in the world at once that would surely bankrupt us. This one solution fits all approach is reckless and could lead to horrible results. When the bullies and tyrants are actually clients of nuclear powers you do not rush in to topple these regimes unless you're ready for an all out world war. No, foreign policy has to be more pragmatic using policies crafted specifically for the situation especially when it comes under the spheres of influence of China and the former Soviet Union.

Supporting Israel like we have is cheap and effective compared to the alternatives. This was not an option in the fifties in eastern europe.

And supporting China's neighboring states like we do Israel, just because we do not like everything China does, is not an option at this point unless we just want to chuck our entire relations with China. No we're in an ecomomic war with China and we need for our own benefit to be engaged with them directly and not trying to set a neighboring state against them.

There are always bullies and thugs around and sometimes there are no better solutions than to be cozy with them for strategic reasons. Its not always clear what the better alternative is and sitting on the sideline without a chip in the game or any influence has it's drawbacks as well.

That's my $.02 anyway.

Solution for Despotic rulers? We've created more despotic rulers than any country in the last two hundred years.

How can our support of Israel be viewed in any way as "cheap". I dont get that. Help me here. Arent we over 100 billion into them yet?

Im still waiting for an answer- why do we send so much money to Israel? And if we have to send money out, if it is our duty, why so much more to them? How do they help us?????

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Solution for Despotic rulers? We've created more despotic rulers than any country in the last two hundred years.

First of all I don’t believe for a minute this statement. Yes we’ve supported and propped up and used despots, but what was the choice? There’s not a lot to choose from in some cases. Should we have postponed any and all strategic relations until democracy was in full bloom? Even without our involvement I don’t believe that you can say for sure that the same regimes wouldn’t have thrived anyway, or that even more tyrannical ones would have existed in their place.

Originally Posted by dalakhani

How can our support of Israel be viewed in any way as "cheap". I dont get that. Help me here. Arent we over 100 billion into them yet?

Im still waiting for an answer- why do we send so much money to Israel? And if we have to send money out, if it is our duty, why so much more to them? How do they help us?????

It is more than we give to any other nation, but over all these years it’s a drop in the bucket at around 100B. We’ve pumped around 90B into Iraq for rebuilding since the takeover of Baghdad.

The region is of vital strategic importance. Without Israel acting as our surrogate what strategy would have held in check the Soviet Unions ambitions and at the same time prevented the further expansion of fanatical religious regimes, given us the amount of intelligence that we currently share with Israel, and at the same time costing us less in terms of blood and treasure?

We give so much more to them simply because they are a stable, strong, democratic ally acting as our surrogate in a region of huge strategic importance, as I mentioned above.
There is not another country that can offer this to us and that is why more goes to them. Until recently we have given far less to others in the area, typically Egypt. But now with Afghanistan and Iraq on the receiving end of huge amounts of US aid our overall expenditures in the region are balancing out.

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

First of all I don’t believe for a minute this statement. Yes we’ve supported and propped up and used despots, but what was the choice? There’s not a lot to choose from in some cases. Should we have postponed any and all strategic relations until democracy was in full bloom? Even without our involvement I don’t believe that you can say for sure that the same regimes wouldn’t have thrived anyway, or that even more tyrannical ones would have existed in their place.

Jim ... here's how to answer that ridiculous statement.

"You're confusing objectives and strategies. Our objective in places like Taiwan, South Korea, The Phillipines, Nicaragua, El Salvador, and Chile was to help establish freedom and democracy.

But there were times when our strategy was to support authoritarian dictators in order to thwart the greater evil of communism. And that strategy worked perfectly.

Communism was defeated ... and Taiwan, South Korea, The Phillipines, Nicaragua, El Salvador, and Chile all became free democracies.

We employed different strategies in Eastern Europe, South Africa, and many other places ... and those strategies achieved our objectives as well ... all those countries became free democracies.

So you see ... don't be confused by strategies ... keep your eye on the objective ... the way savvy Americans always have ... and you'll have a much clearer understanding of why we did what we did ... and how successful we've been."

That's how you handle chumps like that, Jim. Good night !!

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Jim ... here's how to answer that ridiculous statement.

"You're confusing objectives and strategies. Our objective in places like Taiwan, South Korea, The Phillipines, Nicaragua, El Salvador, and Chile was to help establish freedom and democracy.

But there were times when our strategy was to support authoritarian dictators in order to thwart the greater evil of communism. And that strategy worked perfectly.

Communism was defeated ... and Taiwan, South Korea, The Phillipines, Nicaragua, El Salvador, and Chile all became free democracies.

We employed different strategies in Eastern Europe, South Africa, and many other places ... and those strategies achieved our objectives as well ... all those countries became free democracies.

So you see ... don't be confused by strategies ... keep your eye on the objective ... the way savvy Americans always have ... and you'll have a much clearer understanding of why we did what we did ... and how successful we've been."

That's how you handle chumps like that, Jim. Good night !!

Yes you said it, that's what I meant to say! I won't argue with your ability to say it better than I can.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Yes you said it, that's what I meant to say! I won't argue with your ability to say it better than I can.

Okay, so what country has put up more tyrannical despot rulers than the US over the last 200 years? Shall i go over the names?

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Okay, so what country has put up more tyrannical despot rulers than the US over the last 200 years? Shall i go over the names?

You can go ahead and put up the names, but at the same time I want to know from you what should the strategy have been at the time? Who should we have supported, anyone? No one? I know that you can come up with a list of despised dictators but that's not the hard part.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

First of all I don’t believe for a minute this statement. Yes we’ve supported and propped up and used despots, but what was the choice? There’s not a lot to choose from in some cases. Should we have postponed any and all strategic relations until democracy was in full bloom? Even without our involvement I don’t believe that you can say for sure that the same regimes wouldn’t have thrived anyway, or that even more tyrannical ones would have existed in their place.


It is more than we give to any other nation, but over all these years it’s a drop in the bucket at around 100B. We’ve pumped around 90B into Iraq for rebuilding since the takeover of Baghdad.

The region is of vital strategic importance. Without Israel acting as our surrogate what strategy would have held in check the Soviet Unions ambitions and at the same time prevented the further expansion of fanatical religious regimes, given us the amount of intelligence that we currently share with Israel, and at the same time costing us less in terms of blood and treasure?

We give so much more to them simply because they are a stable, strong, democratic ally acting as our surrogate in a region of huge strategic importance, as I mentioned above.
There is not another country that can offer this to us and that is why more goes to them. Until recently we have given far less to others in the area, typically Egypt. But now with Afghanistan and Iraq on the receiving end of huge amounts of US aid our overall expenditures in the region are balancing out.

Even being on the other side of these issues i commend you for your knowledgeable thought out responses. Cheers!

Now back to war.

We had plenty of choices but to use the despots that we have used. Thats what i mean. We say that we are doing what we do in the name of "the american way" and then we support leaders or governments that are so far away from what we claim we are fighting for. One minute, Rumsfeld is shaking hands with a guy and we are pumping them with money and arms. The next minute, the same guy has phantom wmd's and we need to rid the earth of him. It seems that we support despots that can be US controlled and the ones that cant are branded tyrants. Such is the American way or at least thats what our leaders think.

Israel is stable? Are you kidding me? They are the single reason why we have such unstable standing in the region. If not for our undying support of a country that is virtually worthless to us, we wouldnt have all of the problems with the arab governments that we do.

Egyptian and Russian ties were cut in the early 70's. We have a base and strong support in Saudi Arabia. So why is Israel so vital to us? I still dont know.

As for using how much money has been pumped into Iraq, again, that is yet another question for this administration. Why are we there? Wmds? Nope, arent there. Saddam the oppressor? We helped make Saddam! Terrorist ties? 911 commission proved that wasnt the case. So why? And if we are going to make that a base in the middle east, again, why give so much to Israel?

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

It's simply not possible for the US to be a one stop solution to every despotic regime. If ideology alone is your guide you'll end up being pushed into entanglements everywhere in the world at once that would surely bankrupt us. This one solution fits all approach is reckless and could lead to horrible results. When the bullies and tyrants are actually clients of nuclear powers you do not rush in to topple these regimes unless you're ready for an all out world war. No, foreign policy has to be more pragmatic using policies crafted specifically for the situation especially when it comes under the spheres of influence of China and the former Soviet Union.

Supporting Israel like we have is cheap and effective compared to the alternatives. This was not an option in the fifties in eastern europe.

And supporting China's neighboring states like we do Israel, just because we do not like everything China does, is not an option at this point unless we just want to chuck our entire relations with China. No we're in an ecomomic war with China and we need for our own benefit to be engaged with them directly and not trying to set a neighboring state against them.

There are always bullies and thugs around and sometimes there are no better solutions than to be cozy with them for strategic reasons. Its not always clear what the better alternative is and sitting on the sideline without a chip in the game or any influence has it's drawbacks as well.

That's my $.02 anyway.

Jim ... you don't understand the way it works ...

... if they think that saying oil is expensive makes their point ... they say oil is expensive ... but ...

... if they think that saying oil is cheap makes their point ... they say oil is cheap ... sometimes completely contradicting themselves in the same post ... but ... it doesn't matter ... they have no shame ... they have no ideas ... they're just filled with rage and hatred ... and they really don't know why ... but to them it just feels good.

And after one is completely humiliated and slapped silly ... the other one says, "Yeah, man ... you're doing real good."

It's the terminally deluded in support of the completely vanquished ... and nothing more.

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Jim ... you don't understand the way it works ...

... if they think that saying oil is expensive makes their point ... they say oil is expensive ... but ...

... if they think that saying oil is cheap makes their point ... they say oil is cheap ... sometimes completely contradicting themselves in the same post ... but ... it doesn't matter ... they have no shame ... they have no ideas ... they're just filled with rage and hatred ... and they really don't know why ... but to them it just feels good.

And after one is completely humiliated and slapped silly ... the other one says, "Yeah, man ... you're doing real good."

It's the terminally deluded in support of the completely vanquished ... and nothing more.

Sorry but you had your a ss handed to you on this thread.

Facts

-You can't answer the main point of the entire conversation. Why am I paying for another countries army when they could just pay for it themselves? Instead you go on all about how people don't pay income tax and all this other garbage. You answer my question with a reasonable answer and you win. You don't and you run away with your tail between your legs.

Just curious, do you pay american or israeli taxes? Or are there even israeli taxes or do they just get a piece of my paycheck each week.