Is Grasshopper a walk over?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

All sorts of articles in the DRF this week.

The Super Derby has still produced more BC Classic winners than any other 3-year-old race.

They all came a long time ago though.

1984-Gate Dancer won the SD and finished a very close 3rd in the BC.
1987-Alysheba won the SD before being nosed out in the BC.
1988-Seeking the Gold won the SD before losing by 1/2 length in the BC.
1989-Sunday Silence pulled off the double.
1990-Unbridled ran second in the SD before winning the BC.
1994-Concern ran second in the SD before winning the BC.
1997-Deputy Commander won the SD before finishing second in the BC.
2000-Tiznow pulled off the double.

For some stupid reason, it was decided to move the race down to 9f in 2002, with the exception of the 2005 running which was back at 10f. The race has totally lost it's significance since then.

I don't normally advocate using a 10f race to prep for another 10f race. But if it's going to be an easy race, where u don't have to exert much effort to win it, then I don't have a problem with a 10f prep. The reason I don't like the JCGC is because it takes too much out of a horse to try to come back in the BC. But when it's going to be an easy race AND only 9f, that's a combination that leads to what we have with the race now. Give me an easy 10f or a tough 9f race as an ideal prep.

[Travis Stone]

10th (5:10)

Super Derby (G2)

1 1/8 Miles | Open | 3 Year Olds Stakes | Purse: $500,000

Post # Horse Jockey Weight Claim Price Equip. Med.
1 Point Gold Jacinto J 124 L
2 Forty Acres Gonzalez C V 124 L
3 Beta Capo Quinonez L S 124 L
4 Cajun Conquest Perrodin E J 124 L
5 Leonnatus Anteas Jones J 124 L
6 Past the Point Bejarano R 124 L
7 Strong City Hamilton Q 124 L
8 Tortuga Straits LeBlanc K P 124 L
9 Grasshopper Albarado R J 124 L
10 Going Ballistic Berry M C 124 L

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

10th (5:10)

Super Derby (G2)

1 1/8 Miles | Open | 3 Year Olds Stakes | Purse: $500,000

Post # Horse Jockey Weight Claim Price Equip. Med.
1 Point Gold Jacinto J 124 L
2 Forty Acres Gonzalez C V 124 L
3 Beta Capo Quinonez L S 124 L
4 Cajun Conquest Perrodin E J 124 L
5 Leonnatus Anteas Jones J 124 L
6 Past the Point Bejarano R 124 L
7 Strong City Hamilton Q 124 L
8 Tortuga Straits LeBlanc K P 124 L
9 Grasshopper Albarado R J 124 L
10 Going Ballistic Berry M C 124 L

That is a pretty good field...

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

That is a pretty good field...

I love Triumph!! Nice one!

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Cardus

The construction guys from "Major League" would have a field day with this field:

"Who are these f--kin' guys?!"

that's funny. i love that movie. "juuusssst a bit outside"

[Travis Stone]

Yea, who is Grasshopper?

[Slewbopper]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

Yea, who is Grasshopper?

A horse for course....maybe

[King Glorious]

I honestly have never heard of a single one of these other than Grasshopper and only heard of him in the weeks leading to the Travers. It's just unbelievable how this race has fallen. It used to be routine to get one of more of the leading 3yo's to this race. Some of the top ones:

In it's first year, 1980, 3yo champion (Ark Dby, Belmont, Travers) Temperance Hill.
1981, Belmont winner Summing.
1983, Blue Grass/Travers winner Play Fellow. Ky Dby/Ark Dby winner Sunny's Halo.
1984, Preakness winner Gate Dancer and Swaps winner Precisionist.
1985, Belmont winner Creme Fraiche.
1986, Haskell/Travers winner Wise Times.
1987, Ky Dby/Preakness winner and 3yo champion Alysheba.
1988, Seeking the Gold (2nd Wood, Haskell, Travers) and Swaps winner Lively One.
1989, SA Dby, Ky Dby, Preakness winner and 3yo champion Sunday Silence.
1990, Fla Dby, Ky Dby winner and 3yo champion Unbridled.
1993, Canadian TC winner Peteski.
1994, Ark Dby winner (2nd Travers, 3rd Preakness/Haskell) Concern.
1996, Belmont winner (2nd Fla Dby, 3rd Preakness/Blue Grass) Editor's Note.
1997, Travers winner Deputy Commander.
1999, Haskell/Blue Grass winner (2nd Ky Dby/Preakness) Menifee.
2000, Belmont winner Commendable and a horse named Tiznow.

Since then though, the race has really gone downhill. I can only think of two upper level 3yo's that have gone there since then, Ten Most Wanted (Travers, 2nd Belmont) and Lawyer Ron (Ark Dby). In it's first 11 runnings, eight times there was a Classic winner there and in two of the three years u didn't, u had Wise Times (who very easily could have been 3yo champion in 1986), Seeking the Gold (two noses and 1/2 length kept him from winning the Haskell, Travers and BC Classic). It can be argued that over those first 11 years, and perhaps even through 2000, the Super Derby was a more desireable race than the Travers was. What the hell has happened?

[Travis Stone]

Honestly, Glorious, I think it's the competition. The Penn Derby, the Indiana Derby - they all take away from our race, much like I'm sure we take away from theirs. There is too much racing for too few horses now-a-days.

I think Grasshopper is a great score, he could be one where we look back and say, "Oh wow, he ran in the Super Derby."

Lawyer Ron is nothing to sneeze-at either, as he's a leading candidate for HOTY. It all goes in cycles.

[Benny Leger]

Originally Posted by Cardus

The restaurant scene (Sheen holding the menu upside down): "Got any chili dogs over there?"

Funny movie.

"f_ck you JoBoo....if you no help me...I do it myself"

I love that movie!!!

[jpops757]

The best was 1991 Free Spirits Joy. Wondering if this was Calvins biggest win untll last years BC juvi. If you can access a replay. Watch it. FSJ was a local horse trained by Clarence Picou. Several Heavy hitters came to LAD to take the winners share of the1M purse{Ithink it was back then] Calvin took the race on the front end,on the rail wire to wire at about 20/1. MC Hammer had a huge entorage that left Shreveport very disapointed..

[Slewbopper]

[quote=King Glorious]

For some stupid reason, it was decided to move the race down to 9f in 2002, with the exception of the 2005 running which was back at 10f. The race has totally lost it's significance since then.

QUOTE]

The BC and the fragile horses of today has caused a lot of classic races to be shortened in distance. Woodward, JCGC, Vosburgh,Brooklyn...to name a few.

[Danzig]

[quote=Slewbopper]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

For some stupid reason, it was decided to move the race down to 9f in 2002, with the exception of the 2005 running which was back at 10f. The race has totally lost it's significance since then.

QUOTE]

The BC and the fragile horses of today has caused a lot of classic races to be shortened in distance. Woodward, JCGC, Vosburgh,Brooklyn...to name a few.

i think races have beenshortened because the emphasis has been placed on speed, rather than stamina. can't showcase fast, fast horses in a 2 mile race.
it's a shame that now versatility is the ability to run at a couple of tracks, and ship--rather than in earlier times, when a horse might sprint one week, and then run a two miler the next. they just showcased forego recently in bloodhorse, and he did both of those within days, winning both.

[King Glorious]

[quote=Slewbopper]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

For some stupid reason, it was decided to move the race down to 9f in 2002, with the exception of the 2005 running which was back at 10f. The race has totally lost it's significance since then.

QUOTE]

The BC and the fragile horses of today has caused a lot of classic races to be shortened in distance. Woodward, JCGC, Vosburgh,Brooklyn...to name a few.

I've understood and agreed wth the shortening of those other races though. They are run closer to the BC and they were having horrible success as preps for the BC races. The Vosburgh and JCGC especially were routinely sending their winners to the BC to get pounded at low odds. I don't think it's the fragile horses that have caused that though. I feel it was because of the timing and the toughness of those races. For a long time, those races were THE races to point for in their respective divisions and sort of like the Arc de Triomphe, it's hard to have a horse at his peak for a race.....and then ask them to repeat it. The Super Derby didn't have that problem though. It was far enough in advance of the BC that there was time to recover from the 10f distance and it wasn't such a tough race depth wise that a horse had to extend himself to win. It was a top race but since the BC started, it was clearly a prep race while the NY races were more objective races than preps.

[miraja2]

After looking at the PP (http://www.brisnet.com/bris_link/pdfs/darley_88232.pdf) I think it might be worth a shot - depending on how the odds end up of course - at trying to beat Grasshopper in this race with either Forty Acres and/or Going Ballistic.
Grasshopper is clearly the most likey winner, but his last two performances came with him on the lead going :48 for the half, and 1:12&2 for 6f. With Forty Acres in this race, those kind of fractions are unlikely.
Forty Acres has won three in a row over this course impressively, has posted two solid works leading up to this, and could get an easy lead here. If he does, he might be dangerous.
Going Ballistic's last win on the dirt came last October, so he clearly would be a bit of a price here, but he has closed very well in his last three. If Grasshopper, Forty Acres, and perhaps one of the others gets locked in a battle early, it could set up for Going Ballistic late.
I'm just not totally sold on Grasshopper. He towers over this field in terms of speed figures, but if he goes off at some ridiculous price, I think trying to beat him makes sense.

[Bobby Fischer]

Past the Point is a little bit interesting

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

Past the Point is a little bit interesting

normally i'd have to agree with you, just because he's one of the best bred horses on the planet, but man, he's trained by harty!!

[jballscalls]

Good luck on Saturday with the Super Derby Travis!!

[Bobby Fischer]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

normally i'd have to agree with you, just because he's one of the best bred horses on the planet, but man, he's trained by harty!!

Whats your book on Harty Eoin?

I don't know a whole lot about him, other than he seems to get some decent Darley horses now and then. I haven't noticed him developing that many stakes horses.

[Slewbopper]

[quote=King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Slewbopper

I've understood and agreed wth the shortening of those other races though. They are run closer to the BC and they were having horrible success as preps for the BC races. The Vosburgh and JCGC especially were routinely sending their winners to the BC to get pounded at low odds. I don't think it's the fragile horses that have caused that though. I feel it was because of the timing and the toughness of those races. For a long time, those races were THE races to point for in their respective divisions and sort of like the Arc de Triomphe, it's hard to have a horse at his peak for a race.....and then ask them to repeat it. The Super Derby didn't have that problem though. It was far enough in advance of the BC that there was time to recover from the 10f distance and it wasn't such a tough race depth wise that a horse had to extend himself to win. It was a top race but since the BC started, it was clearly a prep race while the NY races were more objective races than preps.

Flashback 1980. A horse named Temperance Hill won the Belmont at 53/1. He also won the Travers, the initial running of the 1 1/4 mile Super Derby and the Jockey Club Gold Cup. 2 1 1/4 mile races and 2 1 1/2 mile races...on the dirt. Not a bad season. There was another horse running that year that he never faced though that took away the big honor...HOY, although he never won at 1 1/2