The Demise Of The Dollar And What To Do About It

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

I have no idea why people save so little in the US. With all the bills people have to pay it's insane they do not pay themselves first (savings). I don't get it at all.

We live in a society where we are bombarded with commercial messages from waking to sleeping telling us we'll be happy if we buy this, buy that, have this or that. I think we don't save because there's no instant gratification in saving (believe me, I continue to have this argument with my husband over him funding his IRA. Which reminds me- need to go nag him again about it.). It's good for the economy if people buy stuff here, and so we're pressured to do so. If we save, the economy suffers. If the individual spend, he or she suffers. Maybe if wages weren't so stagnant, thanks to the excessive corporate welfare of the past years people might actually have disposable income left after putting money into savings.

I also think the worst day's work Reagan ever did was deregulating the credit card industry. As soon as the credit industry no longer had a maximum amount of interest it was permitted to charge people, we got barraged with credit card offers galore with late payment rates comparable to that of loan sharks. I have a friend who got slapped with a 30 percent interest rate on her oustanding balance because she was late witih ONE payment. And of course, the Republican-led "Bankruptcy reform" of a few years' ago made it much harder for people to declare bankruptcy. Over half of people who declare bankruptcy do so because of a medical situation that, because of our f*cked up health system, drains them of any and all assets.

So, we have a society told every day we have to spend spend spend (hell, it's what Giuliani told New Yorkers to do the day after 9/11. No kidding. "Go shopping" was his response to what we should do) and a credit industry that makes it just about impossible for people with limited financial resources to ever get themselves out of debt.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

We live in a society where we are bombarded with commercial messages from waking to sleeping telling us we'll be happy if we buy this, buy that, have this or that. I think we don't save because there's no instant gratification in saving (believe me, I continue to have this argument with my husband over him funding his IRA. Which reminds me- need to go nag him again about it.). It's good for the economy if people buy stuff here, and so we're pressured to do so. If we save, the economy suffers. If the individual spend, he or she suffers. Maybe if wages weren't so stagnant, thanks to the excessive corporate welfare of the past years people might actually have disposable income left after putting money into savings.

I also think the worst day's work Reagan ever did was deregulating the credit card industry. As soon as the credit industry no longer had a maximum amount of interest it was permitted to charge people, we got barraged with credit card offers galore with late payment rates comparable to that of loan sharks. I have a friend who got slapped with a 30 percent interest rate on her oustanding balance because she was late witih ONE payment. And of course, the Republican-led "Bankruptcy reform" of a few years' ago made it much harder for people to declare bankruptcy. Over half of people who declare bankruptcy do so because of a medical situation that, because of our f*cked up health system, drains them of any and all assets.

So, we have a society told every day we have to spend spend spend (hell, it's what Giuliani told New Yorkers to do the day after 9/11. No kidding. "Go shopping" was his response to what we should do) and a credit industry that makes it just about impossible for people with limited financial resources to ever get themselves out of debt.

No on all of this, imo.

It's not up to anyone other than each individual to choose their own course. If you get sucked in by every commercial on tv or radio then you should watch no tv or listen to no radio. I would never agree that aside from being born into poverty that someone's problems are of the cause of/can be solved by some other than themselves.

Don't go blaming Reagan for deregulation of credit cards. It's not true! The bill -- "Depository InstitutionsDeregulatory Act" (or something like that) -- was passed during Carter's term and Carter signed it into law. It was not Reagan.

PErsonally, I think Reagan's worst day was when he signed the Agricultural Adjustment Act, which birthed Agri-business as we know it at the expense of the family farm.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

Good golly, woman! Do you believe in personal responsibility at all?

No savings? It's the advertiser's fault.

In debt? It's the credit card companies' fault.

Sick? Someone else should be forced to take care of you.

Got creditors? Why should you have to pay off your debts!?!?

You know what, you're right. Let's legalize crack while we're at it because heck, it's the individual's responsibility to stay off drugs. And let's get rid of helmet laws because heck, it's the individual's responsibility to not get into motorcycle accidents. And get rid of speed limits, because frankly, people should know better and if they're stupid enough to drive on the road with speeders, well, the non-speeders deserve to die, too.

And you know that guy making $18,000 a year because he wasn't born to a rich family who could put him through school who gets cancer? It's his own damn fault for thinking negative thoughts that gave him cancer. His kid? Eh, it's her own damn fault for being born to a guy who's going to die and leave her. He had no business having children if he wasn't rich. Kids are only for rich people.

B, I do believe in personal responsibility- if you have sex without a condom and you get someone pregnant who doesn't want to abort, you should pay child support, for example. But I also understand that life happens- people who aren't rich get sick, or get in accidents, or believe a government that tells them the air down at the WTC is perfectly safe two days after the buildings fall. And credit card companies are there to offer borrowed money to handle life's problems and then there to insure that you'll never, ever get out of debt once you start borrowing from them, because they make sure not to tell you what happens if you miss payments or are late, except in very, very small print. Over half of people who declare bankruptcy do so because of a MEDICAL SITUATION. Explain to me how leaving their survivors in debt the rest of their lives because they got cancer is fair because hey, it's their personal responsibility. What would you have them do? Kill themselves before they get too sick so their families don't have to go into the poorhouse? Do they deserve to live the remainder of their lives in agony because they can't afford medical care and it's their problem?

Is this what you are saying? Rich people can get their illnesses treated and f*ck the poor and their families because they don't have money to pay for health care or for an emergency fund that's of any use? Is that what you're saying?

B, I have a dear friend whose husband lost his job in fracking Buffalo, which is not known for its excellent employment opportunities, right after she had a child. Wasn't his fault; the business was failing and he was let go. Despite her being employed full time, they were $27,000 in debt within a year-and-a-half and I can tell you, they have NOTHING. They were using credit cards to buy food, not movie tickets. And their debt soared because of the g*d*mn fact that the credit card companies can change the interest rate they originally set up with you because you're late with a payment and they can jack that rate up to levels associated with loan sharks. And so people owe more in interest than the original purchase. And those people are the ones who can't afford a 30 percent interest rate. It's disgusting. And it's driving more and more Americans into poverty but hey, it's my friend's husband's own g*dd*mn fault for taking a job at a place that five years later was going to fail, right? And for having a baby, right?

[tanner12oz]

goldismoney.info

lots of good info there.....ive read into ive been on physical silver the past few months

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

You know what, you're right. Let's legalize crack while we're at it

Crack no, weed yes.

Frankly, unless you get drug tested for work, I can't think of one good reason not to hemp.

You are way out there. Just stop blaming Reagan for the Credit Card sh1t.

Do your friends believe the sh1t you talk?

If your friends are having a hard time, tell them to get a second job. I did it for years. I missed nearly every Saturday and most Sundays with my wife and two kids for YEARS.

Life is neither always fair or easy. It's the tough times frankly that make it worth living.

[hi_im_god]

goldbugs.

it's not legal to hunt and kill them so you just have to listen to their nonsense. someones been paying a little too much time on the am dial.

all those who missed the big run up in gold the last 30 years still have a chance to get on board.

i love the idea that a higher stock market always means it's 1929 again and a lower stock market always means the slide has just started.

willian jennings bryant would have loved this.

[GenuineRisk]

B-

No, my sense of personal responsibility is not limited to the male of the species, it's just easier in the case of pregnancy, for him to avoid it, as a woman dumb enough to let a guy stick an unrubbered penis into her when she doesn't want to get pregnant is going to be stuck with addressing the consequences one way or another whether she wants to be or not. I was limiting my example to fiscal responsibility.

Lots of people don't know the first thing about how the credit card industry works. Because at no point in their lives are they taught how to handle money. We focus obsessively on 'readin' ritin' and 'rithmatic (all well and good) but I see a real dearth in education's attempts to teach things kids will really need as grownups. Those of us who were fortunate enough to grow up in middle-class households with parents who had middle-class parents who had the time to explain these things to us had a leg up, but it had nothing to do with personal responsibility and everything to do with being a member of the Lucky Sperm Club, as it were (a name I usually reserve for the hereditary wealthy, but face it, as Americans most of us are members of the Lucky Sperm Club compared to the majority of the world, especially if we're Caucasian, too). I've had to explain the difference between a savings and a money market account to friends with Master's Degrees. It's not easy, especially if you didn't learn it young.

When it comes to the credit card industry, I have nothing but unkind feelings for the business- I see those tables out at college campuses every fall, nabbing every kid who stops for more than ten seconds, none of whom have any idea how to manage their credit because A) they're 18 and B) no one has taught them this. Then they run up debt and spend the rest of their lives trying to dig out from under it. I read about how they target the elderly, whose comprehension skills are already declining, due to age. They are bad news, as most loan sharks are. Hell, I pay off my balance every single month. You know what the credit card industry's term for people like me is? "Deadbeat." Thanks. Thanks a lot.

But do you think the credit card industry would support educating its consumers? The same industry that targets people who have declared bankruptcy with credit card offers (the other fun story my friend has to tell about her experience with debt- getting bombarded by offers from Visa, etc., AFTER they filed). Please. They want people not to understand because then people will continue to give them record profits. It's deceptive and it's wrong.

Personal responsibility is well and good, but it needs to start from a level playing field, at least where information is concerned. This industry is doing everything it can to keep Americans dumb and indebted.

Apologies- yes, deregulation did start under Carter's administration (he has to work with a Republican Senate, yes? ) and continued through Reagan's culminating in the lovely Savings and Loan scandal (remember that one?) which resulted in all of us paying for rich people's taking advantage of an idealogical belief in unregulated capitalism. Reagan presided over the largest tax hike in the last years of his Presidency, remember?

[GenuineRisk]

As for the spending thing (and then I'm off the soapbox for the day, I promise)-

Yes, I agree there is a huge amount of PR (personal responsibility) involved in spending habits. But I think it's easy to dismiss the pervasiveness of advertising and the thousands of small and large ways we're pressured to buy buy buy as having no effect, when in fact, I think they are hugely influential on our natures, especially when we're young.

I was a (pardon the pun) a huge fattist for quite a while- I considered obesity the height of personal weakness. As a small female, I got fed up with fat people spotting the empty seat next to me on the bus, plane, whatever and taking advantage of the extra space my small frame afforded them, so I spent many a ride jammed up against someone else's sweaty, smelly excess abdomen. I feel the trade-off for me not being able to reach things on high shelves is that I don't fill up the entire seat on a bus and I never have problems with "leg room," whatever that is. And so I found it unfair to be squished because someone else can't keep her hands out of the Ding-Dong box.

But you know what? Obesity ain't that simple. Admittedly, I don't buy the "genetics' argument because obesity rates have tripled in the past 30 years and we just don't evolve that quickly. But we are surrounded by food. Surrounded. And it's pushed at us relentlessly. And we don't evolve that fast and our bodies and brains are, I think, hard-wired to remember a time when we spent most of our lives starving (heck, obesity was once the height of beauty because it was rare). And I think advertising, etc., takes advantage of that and eventually most people give in. And once fat, I think it's really hard, a lifelong struggle, in fact, to address it. I think losing a large amount of weight is harder than quitting smoking (you still have to eat, after all) and props to those who manage to take off a large amount of weight and keep it off- that's a war they never stop fighting, and in a society where they are surrounded by images and messages saying "eat this! eat this! eat this!"

So yes, body health is a personal responsibility, but I think our culture makes it as difficult as possible to stay healthy- little access to exercise in our car-dominated culture, sedentary jobs and endless push push push of foods that have little nutritional value. Hell, I just had chocolate and wheat thins for breakfast. Mmm! Healthy! Well, I did have a glass of milk, too...

And that carries over to our consumerism. It's a high to buy something. I remember sitting in front of the TV as a kid, listing the things I wanted for Christmas-- in June. I lost that acquisitiveness somewhere in the wake of my mom's death, since you can't buy anything to make THAT feel better, but you know, a lot of kids aren't as lucky as I was to have their mom die. (said with sarcasm. I can't believe I feel it necesary to explain that, but again, people can surprise you with what they don't understand)

Personal responsibility is all well and good and essential, but it's not the entire answer when your entire society is built on a system (advertising) designed to keep you spending more than you have. Is there an easy solution? Gads, no. I'm a believer in regulated capitalism, and a business has to advertise a product. But I think now, in our negative-savings society, we're seeing the effects of unregulated advertising and the thing is, when it comes crashing down, all of us, even those who are saving what they can, will feel it. Just as we had to be the ones to bail out the Savings & Loan crooks. And I think, in a society dominated with a command to buybuybuy it's wrong to permit unregulated lending. It's wrong. It allows wealthy corporations to take advantage of the weak and the poor and that's as close to evil as I can find.

Oh- I forgot- my friends didn't move from Buffalo because my friend's husband's mother was (still is, I think) quite ill and he is her entire support system. Though I imagine your response would be that he shouldn't have had a mom who got sick, right? Or she should have been tough enough to take life without any family around her, right?

I'm also not sure where they would have found the money to move. It's expensive, moving!

Done, promise. I have a play to get written today (not on economics; on aging. With zombies! And cupcakes!) and actors to rehearse. Carry on with your unkind comments without me, hi_Im_god. My heart breaks to think of your low opinion. I'm cut. Really I am. You too, STS. Can you see the virtual tears spilling on my keyboard?

And STS- I worked three jobs in college, along with full-time classes. Nothing like an 8:30AM to 11PM day five days a week and an 8:30-6PM on the other two to really make a girl depressed. So yeah, I know from hard work. Did your wife work, too, while you were working two jobs? What did she do? In my friends' case, he had to limit his search to a night job, because she worked full-time (which was six days' a week, by the way) during the day and they had no money for day care, duh). What did you do with your kids while your wife was (I assume from your tone) working, too? Or wasn't she?

It was a happy ending at the end, though- she was able to switch jobs and found one that also included health insurance, but it took a few years of looking. He's working now, too. But it took time; it's not a magic solution. You have to find the d*mn job.

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

The chick of awe.
Awesome.

Tis how I feel.

[Mortimer]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

Genny sweetie....does she resemble you in any way?

[herkhorse]

Thanks for the posts Randall, rambling or not.

And for people like me who aren't big on numbers, here is a quick read on the differences between a million, billion, trillion, etc.

http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Taxes/million.htm

[Seattleallstar]

great read Randall I just got around to it, it will be only a matter of time til the dollar roars back as markets in Asia start a downturn as investments start to tumble, alot of Austrailian backers in those sectors will start to see a sharp decline.

[ultracapper]

the original post in this thread was very good

[TheSpyder]

Randall,

Good stuff here and I'm impressed us pony lovers are smarter than I thought.

I for one come from a manufacturing back ground and seen the quick demise in the USA as a real source of concern. The retailers i.e. Walmarting of America, are just too string and too much influence.

However, for me the central issue is what will happen when the war is over. I believe that war spending is fueling our economy with goods and services for the military. The greatest increase in jobs is in the military. When it goes, and I hope it does, that's a whole lot of loot and a whole lot of action sucked out of what is already a weak economy.

It's disheartening to hear our politicians speak nothing of the real issues. Seems like there are so many things going bad.

Too bad for the children.

Spyder

[2Hot4TV]

The devaluation of the dollar could put the US labor force into third world price levels. Manufacturing will might come back to life.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

goldbugs.

it's not legal to hunt and kill them so you just have to listen to their nonsense. someones been paying a little too much time on the am dial.

all those who missed the big run up in gold the last 30 years still have a chance to get on board.

i love the idea that a higher stock market always means it's 1929 again and a lower stock market always means the slide has just started.

willian jennings bryant would have loved this.

GOD,
I am hardly a gold bug and currently own no physical gold whatsoever so get your facts straight. I'm not comparing this to 1929 at all. The comparison was to the market being up for X number of days in a time period and that time happens to be 1927. Just a fact....Now most of my post deals with the dollar, nothing else...Our economy isn't going to fall into collapse at all....But if you don't think it has a major effect on inflation you need to look again.