Dubai World Cup

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by miraja2

But despite being in more races....he has lost fewer races.
I just think that while both horses are/were accomplished, it only seems logical to say that at this point Invasor has established himself as the better overall animal.

Would you be saying that if Bernardini had beaten Invasor in the Classic?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Would you be saying that if Bernardini had beaten Invasor in the Classic?

i think had bernardini won the race that most would say he was better. only having one race to go by, it's not much of a study. but then, multiple face-offs don't mean much either. sunday silence won 3 of 4 meetings with easy goer, but there are still plenty of people who will say easy goer was the better horse.

but winning the one time two horses face each other doesn't mean much. does anyone REALLY think seabiscuit was a better horse than war admiral?? i don't-he just managed to win that day. swaps beat nashua in the derby, and then nashua won a match race-so who's better?

i can see where many would come to the conclusion that invasor is 'better' than bernardini-but i can see why that would cause disagreement as well.

as for those who say bernardini was 'overrated'-in the sense that he didn't accomplish some of the more outlandish things some said he would-then yes, you could say that-but losing a race by one length doesn't make a very good horse suddenly very bad! considering who bernardini lost to, i don't see that his reputation should suffer for that loss. one length is NOT the difference between very good, and a nag.

[todko]

As most know, I thought Bernardini was very hyped. We heard things like best since Slew and even on this board people were predicting 1:58 and such for the BCC. He's a damn nice horse but . . . not an Invasor.

Play the tape -- Bernardini only lost by 1 but he had a dream trip and Invasor had a much tougher trip. When Invasor cleared and only had Bernardini ahead of him it was obvious that he could run by Bernardini with ease and he did. Invasor has had a number of trough trips and still wins. If they ran today Invasor would beat him again even more easily.

Invasor deserves all the credit in the world. He's done more than any horse in a very long time. Won on 3 different continents. Doesn't need the drugs. Went everywhere and won everywhere. And he looks like he's still improving. He's still a young horse.

Maybe Argentina will become more recognized for producing competitive horses. Asiatic Boy could be another Invasor.

[boswd]

Originally Posted by todko

As most know, I thought Bernardini was very hyped. We heard things like best since Slew and even on this board people were predicting 1:58 and such for the BCC. He's a damn nice horse but . . . not an Invasor.

Play the tape -- Bernardini only lost by 1 but he had a dream trip and Invasor had a much tougher trip. When Invasor cleared and only had Bernardini ahead of him it was obvious that he could run by Bernardini with ease and he did. Invasor has had a number of trough trips and still wins. If they ran today Invasor would beat him again even more easily.

Invasor deserves all the credit in the world. He's done more than any horse in a very long time. Won on 3 different continents. Doesn't need the drugs. Went everywhere and won everywhere. And he looks like he's still improving. He's still a young horse.


Maybe Argentina will become more recognized for producing competitive horses. Asiatic Boy could be another Invasor.

ToDko and I have gone back and forth on many issues on this and another board. But this one topic we are in full agreement. Invasor gave me chills on Saturday. He is by far the best horse we have seen since Cigar and maybe even better. Many have called Cigar a super horse, I truly believe that Invasor is a Superhorse, incredible what he has accomplised.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by todko

As most know, I thought Bernardini was very hyped. We heard things like best since Slew and even on this board people were predicting 1:58 and such for the BCC. He's a damn nice horse but . . . not an Invasor.

Play the tape -- Bernardini only lost by 1 but he had a dream trip and Invasor had a much tougher trip. When Invasor cleared and only had Bernardini ahead of him it was obvious that he could run by Bernardini with ease and he did. Invasor has had a number of trough trips and still wins. If they ran today Invasor would beat him again even more easily.

Invasor deserves all the credit in the world. He's done more than any horse in a very long time. Won on 3 different continents. Doesn't need the drugs. Went everywhere and won everywhere. And he looks like he's still improving. He's still a young horse.

Maybe Argentina will become more recognized for producing competitive horses. Asiatic Boy could be another Invasor.

Well put and I completely agree. To me the Classic showed that there is no doubt about Invasor's superiority due to the ease that he ran down Bernardini after coming terribly wide off the turn. You have given a very accurate accounting of how the race was won. Invasor had plenty left at the finish. Premium Tap put up a stronger stretch challenge this time in Dubai, but when it came down to it Invasor just broke him like he always does. Invasor finishes his races more strongly than any in recent memory. What first clued me in to his ability was the Bris pace numbers, which I use all the time. Since I've been using Bris I have yet to see a horse run at such a high sustained pace at Classic distance, even when encountering trouble!

Believe it or not there are still people that didn't notice any of this and are holding on to the concept that it is still not definitive who the better horse is.

Asiatic Boy is another one that impresses every time and could be another monster. I am looking forward to seeing him run over here.

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Well put and I completely agree. To me the Classic showed that there is no doubt about Invasor's superiority due to the ease that he ran down Bernardini after coming terribly wide off the turn. You have given a very accurate accounting of how the race was won. Invasor had plenty left at the finish. Premium Tap put up a stronger stretch challenge this time in Dubai, but when it came down to it Invasor just broke him like he always does. Invasor finishes his races more strongly than any in recent memory. What first clued me in to his ability was the Bris pace numbers, which I use all the time. Since I've been using Bris I have yet to see a horse run at such a high sustained pace at Classic distance, even when encountering trouble!

Believe it or not there are still people that didn't notice any of this and are holding on to the concept that it is still not definitive who the better horse is.

Asiatic Boy is another one that impresses every time and could be another monster. I am looking forward to seeing him run over here.

And if you watch Invasor after the race, I have it taped, he is not even blowing that hard. And he was pushed by Premium Tap. OFF lasix. This horse has got an absolutely incredible cardio-vascular system. When he dies, hopefully long from now, I want an autopsy. I want a look at those lungs and heart.

[Rileyoriley]

I'm just happy to see good, older horses still racing instead of being retired.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by pgardn

And if you watch Invasor after the race, I have it taped, he is not even blowing that hard. And he was pushed by Premium Tap. OFF lasix. This horse has got an absolutely incredible cardio-vascular system. When he dies, hopefully long from now, I want an autopsy. I want a look at those lungs and heart.

Pgn,
The heart thing was a complete bust as idea of ability. After Sec's autopsy people were thinking there was a correlation when there isn't. People started giving cardiograms to 2 year olds and it was a ticket to the poor house as they ran like nothing.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Pgn,
The heart thing was a complete bust as idea of ability. After Sec's autopsy people were thinking there was a correlation when there isn't. People started giving cardiograms to 2 year olds and it was a ticket to the poor house as they ran like nothing.

big heart doesn't necessarily mean fast legs--it just means he or she has a big heart!
now fast horse + big heart--that = secretariat.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Believe it or not there are still people that didn't notice any of this and are holding on to the concept that it is still not definitive who the better horse is.

Believe it or not, there are still people who take one race and use it to determine definitively who's better than who. As if he knows for a fact that Bernardini wouldn't have done the same things in the Donn and Dubai World Cup that Invasor did.

Zeigler put it best, so I'm not even going to waste my time with this guy anymore.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Believe it or not, there are still people who take one race and use it to determine definitively who's better than who. As if he knows for a fact that Bernardini wouldn't have done the same things in the Donn and Dubai World Cup that Invasor did.

Zeigler put it best, so I'm not even going to waste my time with this guy anymore.

You're the only one using one race. I am looking at the entire careers of both horses. You are talking about what if's. I am only looking at what we know. Saying "what if Bernardini did this or that" is a futile exercise. We only know what he did. Even if he did improve, so has Invasor so its not likely that there would be any difference in the outcome if they were to have squared off again. Do you really see any chinks in Invasors armor that Bernardini could exploit and take advantage of?

I know that I'm futilely wasting my time on this with you, but I just keep at it because I know you are looking at it with too much emotion and its clouding your judgement. Not a good thing for handicapping.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by todko

As most know, I thought Bernardini was very hyped. We heard things like best since Slew and even on this board people were predicting 1:58 and such for the BCC. He's a damn nice horse but . . . not an Invasor.

Play the tape -- Bernardini only lost by 1 but he had a dream trip and Invasor had a much tougher trip. When Invasor cleared and only had Bernardini ahead of him it was obvious that he could run by Bernardini with ease and he did. Invasor has had a number of trough trips and still wins. If they ran today Invasor would beat him again even more easily.

Invasor deserves all the credit in the world. He's done more than any horse in a very long time. Won on 3 different continents. Doesn't need the drugs. Went everywhere and won everywhere. And he looks like he's still improving. He's still a young horse.

Maybe Argentina will become more recognized for producing competitive horses. Asiatic Boy could be another Invasor.

I'd love to know what he could do in the Derby. Someday they should find a way to handicap the Southern Hemisphere 3.5yo's such that they can run in the American Classics.