Any Given Saturday

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Pedestrian... And what would you have expected?

This is a Derby prep in Tampa... He ran the race up front, unlike his other races, and finished going away easily, as he has done before. So you wanted a track record?

Not a track record, but certainly more than the 88 beyer he's goning to get for that laughfest...

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Not a track record, but certainly more than the 88 beyer he's goning to get for that laughfest...

88 Beyer and he was never even shown the whip. Hand ridden... he was trotting at the end. Pretty much the kind of effort I would want for an early prep against a weak field.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by pgardn

88 Beyer and he was never even shown the whip. Hand ridden... he was trotting at the end. Pretty much the kind of effort I would want for an early prep against a weak field.

Trotting at the end?!! I was at the finish line, dude...He had all he could handle from a local yokel that's not even on the DT...If you need the chart, here:

http://www.drf.com/drfPDFChartRacesI...TAM0217100.pdf

I'm not sh1tin' on the horse, it's just that @ 1-5 and being ranked in the top 10 of derby contenders, he should have shown a hell of a lot more...if he has any heart that is...

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Trotting at the end?!! I was at the finish line, dude...He had all he could handle from a local yokel that's not even on the DT...If you need the chart, here:

http://www.drf.com/drfPDFChartRacesI...TAM0217100.pdf

I'm not sh1tin' on the horse, it's just that @ 1-5 and being ranked in the top 10 of derby contenders, he should have shown a hell of a lot more...if he has any heart that is...

YOu were there. So you had a better view. Watch the race replays, dude. You can view them more than once. The race was over way before the finish line... are you serious? Heart? WTF? You want him to set a track record in an early derby prep.in Tampa. These horses have enough trouble making it to the Derby and you want a blow out in an early prep race? I dont need a chart I watched the race, and I just watched it again. The race was over... Heart? How in God's name from that race can you state this horse has no heart?

[Gander]

File this under who cares, get the form out for tomorrow and give some opinions. Nobody cares about Any Given Saturday. It was a terrible movie to boot, Al Pacino's worst performance by far. Pgard, sometimes I think you just like to argue. Must be the physics teacher in you.

Originally Posted by Gander

File this under who cares, get the form out for tomorrow and give some opinions. Nobody cares about Any Given Saturday. It was a terrible movie to boot, Al Pacino's worst performance by far. Pgard, sometimes I think you just like to argue. Must be the physics teacher in you.

As I have state numerous times before I like to find out how people view races. So I challenge statements. Thats why I liked Oracles temper Tim. But I understand there is a line of civility.

Bottom line Tim is I dont think the race shows much of anything. It was a good workout at best.

BTW, I hardly ever argue with kids. They are too much fun to joke around with. But I love a good sports "discussion".

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by pgardn

YOu were there. So you had a better view. Watch the race replays, dude. You can view them more than once. The race was over way before the finish line... are you serious? Heart? WTF? You want him to set a track record in an early derby prep.in Tampa. These horses have enough trouble making it to the Derby and you want a blow out in an early prep race? I dont need a chart I watched the race, and I just watched it again. The race was over... Heart? How in God's name from that race can you state this horse has no heart?

He has no heart because he barely beat a pool of marginal NW1x'ers; most of which had no business in this race..That's why. If you want to see what a champion performs like, watch Bluegrass Cat in last year's SFD...

[ManilaRose]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

He has no heart because he barely beat a pool of marginal NW1x'ers; most of which had no business in this race..That's why. If you want to see what a champion performs like, watch Bluegrass Cat in last year's SFD...

First let me say I thought it was an ok performance. That being said the Derby's in May at Churchill, not February at Tampa. Second, to say he barely won this race is comical and deserves no more time spent on the comment than this. Lastly, I was unaware a horse's heart is measured by the margin of victory against inferior horses who at no point made the race interesting enough of a challenge for AGS to call on heart. Horses win with ability and heart. Some races you need one, some races you need both. Heart certainly wasn't necessary in this race.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I thought Sun King's win in the Tampa Derby was totally awful.

As a 1/20 favorite, against a VERY soft field at level weight, he got to dilly dally on the lead through soft fractions, some soon to be claimer named Forever Wild took a pretty good run at him on the far turn, before SK shrugged him off and won by 3 in unimpressive time. His figure that day shouldn't be that much more than what AGS will get.

SK had a pretty nice comeback race at a one-turn mile one start prior. Tampa's always been a funny track. If anyone remembers last year, a pair of horses (Seek Gold and Take D' Tour) who got soundly beaten at the '06 Tampa meet---both won Grade 1 races on the same day...just a few months later.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by ManilaRose

First let me say I thought it was an ok performance. That being said the Derby's in May at Churchill, not February at Tampa. Second, to say he barely won this race is comical and deserves no more time spent on the comment than this. Lastly, I was unaware a horse's heart is measured by the margin of victory against inferior horses who at no point made the race interesting enough of a challenge for AGS to call on heart. Horses win with ability and heart. Some races you need one, some races you need both. Heart certainly wasn't necessary in this race.

In hindsight, I imagine it was a bit harsh to question this horse's ability/heart based on one race. In rereading some of my posts, I picked up on a bit of vitrol that I normally refrain from....Guess I was severely disappointed by the effort, even though early on the DT, over a quirky track....just expected that AGS should have shown a lot more than what he did against this field... This "hand ride in the stretch" that some refer to was against a horse with a career average beyer of 60.6 over 6 starts - his best a 76....to draw off by 2 and a half lengths againts this class of horse might impress someone, but fell well short of my expectations of him.
Perhaps that's all part of Pletcher's plan for him...Who knows?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I strongly disagree with the poster who thought AGS's KEE race 2nd time out was his best race. His stakes debut was a far better performance.

The last high profile 3yo prospect, to finish his 2yo season in the Kentucky Jockey Club and make his 3yo debut in the Sam Davis was The Cliff's Edge.

He was beaten as the 1/2 favorite in the betting. Two races later, he rallied to win the Blue Grass Stakes with a 111 Beyer, beating eventual Ky Derby 2nd and 4th place finishers Lion Heart and Limehouse. TCE ended up being the morning line favorite for the Derby. However, he was cold on the board, ran 5th, lost his shoes, and I think might have come out of the race with an injury.

I'm not discouraged with AGS's effort today, and still consider him a legit Derby horse. However, I'm also a tad happier I passed up making a future bet on him at the anemic 14/1 odds he closed at last week.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by pgardn

88 Beyer and he was never even shown the whip. Hand ridden... he was trotting at the end. Pretty much the kind of effort I would want for an early prep against a weak field.

PG,

What I would not like if I was a fan of 'Saturday' was his considerably shortened stride in the stretch.. I may have seen something that isn't there, but to me he did not look good finishing up. And I don't mean under the wire.. I mean when clear midstretch when he should have been at his absolute best. He was not reaching out a lick. That said, Tampa has a very strange surface that doesn't seem to flatter horses visually. I'll have to watch it again.

Originally Posted by Kasept

PG,

What I would not like if I was a fan of 'Saturday' was his considerably shortened stride in the stretch.. I may have seen something that isn't there, but to me he did not look good finishing up. And I don't mean under the wire.. I mean when clear midstretch when he should have been at his absolute best. He was not reaching out a lick. That said, Tampa has a very strange surface that doesn't seem to flatter horses visually. I'll have to watch it again.

You may be right. He was being hand ridden in a stern manner, just looked like he knew where the finish line was to me. Maybe JV legs and body told him it over, that is difficult to see. And I really think this horse will have to come from mid pack with the real derby contenders. He does not have the early speed to run up front imo.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Kasept

PG,

What I would not like if I was a fan of 'Saturday' was his considerably shortened stride in the stretch.. I may have seen something that isn't there, but to me he did not look good finishing up. And I don't mean under the wire.. I mean when clear midstretch when he should have been at his absolute best. He was not reaching out a lick. That said, Tampa has a very strange surface that doesn't seem to flatter horses visually. I'll have to watch it again.

That is exactly my summary of the performance, he did not look good today to me in the context of looking for live derby prospects. The stride was short. I did not see a horse with a lot of energy in reserve down the lane. My opinion is that there wasn't a whole lot more there.

Way too early still. As I watch it again, when JV took a look back around the final turn into the stretch, the horse kinda of said "what am I supposed to do?" for a moment... I really cant take much out of this at all upon review. Running on the beach sand... and the 2nd place horse had a big ground saving trip on a track that leaders held well on today, early races at least. But I was not expecting to see the horse to run completely away from the others anyway based on what I have seen from him. Expectations before a race play a big role in how one views the race.

But I do think its true the horse is rated highly because of Pletcher and not his accomplishments.

The Southwest should be much more interesting.

[disappearingdan_akaplaya]

i really dont see anything wrong at all with the horses performance today. the horse did it pretty easy and wasnt fully extended and thats notta bad thing this time of year when youre on the trail. the horse has proven himself@3 different tracks now and has already showed churchill isnt gonna be a problem for him if he makes it. hes a half length from being undefeated and theres no shame in losing to the lone horse who has defeated him. i think the harshness on him is unwarranted at this point

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by disappearingdan_akaplaya

i really dont see anything wrong at all with the horses performance today. the horse did it pretty easy and wasnt fully extended and thats notta bad thing this time of year when youre on the trail. the horse has proven himself@3 different tracks now and has already showed churchill isnt gonna be a problem for him if he makes it. hes a half length from being undefeated and theres no shame in losing to the lone horse who has defeated him. i think the harshness on him is unwarranted at this point

I don't think it's " harshness " at all. It's just a reasonably honest evaluation of TODAY'S race. I don't think anyone suggested he couldn't ( and shouldn't ) improve.....it's really just as DrugS said......he didn't run very fast. Even in a first start he probably should have run a little faster for a horse who is getting so much hype. More it's just a slight cause for pause.

[slotdirt]

How good is Distorted Humor? That's all.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

I did not see a horse with a lot of energy in reserve down the lane. My opinion is that there wasn't a whole lot more there.

He's a grinding type....the way he finished doesn't bother me. He was twitching his ears once he put the field away, and never left the impression that he was a spent horse.

The only legit knock on his performance I see is that he simply didn't run very fast.

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

The only legit knock on his performance I see is that he simply didn't run very fast.

He ran .10 second slower than Blue Grass Cat's 2006 Sam Davis.

Coming to the wire, his ears were pricked and he was looking around. He got squeezed a bit and ate some dirt early on. It was a good education that took nothing out of him.

The biggest plus, in my handicapping mind, is when the Tampa Bay Derby comes up, and the challengers ship in from So. Fla., he will have a distinct advantage because he now has a trip over the surface.