Honor A.P. retired

[moses]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Someone check on Betsy! She’s the first person I think of whenever Honor AP is mentioned. I’m sure she’s going to be disappointed.

But seriously, it would be nice to see horses like this race deep into their 4YO year or later to see what they’re truly capable of. Without any details, hope the horse is alright.

[Dahoss]

Breed to breed instead of breed to race

[casp0555]

Originally Posted by moses

Someone check on Betsy! She’s the first person I think of whenever Honor AP is mentioned. I’m sure she’s going to be disappointed.

But seriously, it would be nice to see horses like this race deep into their 4YO year or later to see what they’re truly capable of. Without any details, hope the horse is alright.

https://www.horseracingnation.com/ne...ucky_Derby_123

[RolloTomasi]

Lane's End Puff Release...er...Press Release

Lane’s End farm announced today that Honor A. P. will retire from racing and stand the 2021 season at their Versailles farm. The three-year-old colt retires as a Grade 1 winner and the top earner of his leading second-crop sire Honor Code.

This is the roundabout way of saying he’s a one-hit wonder.

In his most recent start, Honor A. P. dealt with an unlucky trip to finish a quickening fourth in the Grade 1 Kentucky Derby…

Unlucky trip or bad ride? Why he was allowed to switch off and hang nearly 15 lengths off the uncontested pace (while going wide into the first turn once again) is beyond me. The horse is bred to be a plodder, but if he had any positive going into the Derby (and there weren’t many) it was that he actually had a modicum of early speed and did well in his previous races with a stalking trip. Ironically, Smith did the exact opposite in the Shared Belief, inexplicably forcing the pace with a wide sweeping early move. To compound the problem, Smith decided to wait until the ¼ pole to set down on the horse (all the while still going wide) when the horse’s other strength has been his ability to accelerate and challenge for the lead on the far turn.

At any rate, if the author of this puff piece actually thought that the horse was "quickening" at the end, I don’t know what to tell you. The horse made up a total of 2 lengths in the stretch.

…posting a 99 Beyer and traveling an incredible 49 more feet than the winner Authentic. This in turn means that the colt ran the fastest race of the field when accounting for ground loss.

Rather than dubiously inflating the performance of the horse, most of this basically proves the performance of the rider left a lot to be desired.

And by the way, what a field it was. Hardly missed Nadal, Charlatan, Maxfield, King Guillermo, Art Collector, Thousand Words, Uncle Chuck, Swiss Skydiver…

“Honor A. P. is a horse with an immense talent,” said trainer John Shirreffs. “He was so forward and precocious that he broke his maiden second time out by over 5 lengths going two turns.

When I think of precocity, I think of Gulch or Summer Squall or King Glorious or Cryptoclearance winning early baby races in the summer. I don’t think of a horse that wins a low-rated maiden race at Santa Anita in October.

But relatively speaking, I guess in Shirreff’s world the horse was quite precocious…

Honor A. P. showed brilliance as a two-year-old from the first time I saw him train and replicated it as a three-year-old defeating the future Kentucky Derby winner. He ran a super race in the Derby and we later found that he came out of the race with an injury, so all things considered, what he accomplished was something special.

Running sluggishly for 10 furlongs, losing to a horse you already defeated, and coming out a race injured are stallion-making qualities now?

The Grade 1 Santa Anita Derby has long produced breed-shaping sires with past winners including A.P. Indy, Sunday Silence, Affirmed, Pioneerof the Nile and more.

Affirmed was a breed-shaping sire? In what country?

At least the “...and more” part is tenuously accurate since the author opted not to name Indian Charlie outright…

“Honor A. P. was a wow horse from the beginning. He was the highest priced yearling in Honor Code’s first crop. He was a standout two-year-old at April Mayberry’s, and the most recognizable horse in training at Santa Anita,” said Bill Farish.“His stunning good looks paired with his obvious talent make him just the type of prospect we are looking for at Lane’s End.”

From the sound of it, Lane’s End breeds show horses not racehorses.

Whatever happened to stamina, durability, consistency, versatility, and--dare I say--longevity?

At the very least, a classic win (or two) would have been nice…

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Lane's End Puff Release...er...Press Release


This is the roundabout way of saying he’s a one-hit wonder.

Unlucky trip or bad ride? Why he was allowed to switch off and hang nearly 15 lengths off the uncontested pace (while going wide into the first turn once again) is beyond me. The horse is bred to be a plodder, but if he had any positive going into the Derby (and there weren’t many) it was that he actually had a modicum of early speed and did well in his previous races with a stalking trip. Ironically, Smith did the exact opposite in the Shared Belief, inexplicably forcing the pace with a wide sweeping early move. To compound the problem, Smith decided to wait until the ¼ pole to set down on the horse (all the while still going wide) when the horse’s other strength has been his ability to accelerate and challenge for the lead on the far turn.

At any rate, if the author of this puff piece actually thought that the horse was "quickening" at the end, I don’t know what to tell you. The horse made up a total of 2 lengths in the stretch.

Rather than dubiously inflating the performance of the horse, most of this basically proves the performance of the rider left a lot to be desired.

And by the way, what a field it was. Hardly missed Nadal, Charlatan, Maxfield, King Guillermo, Art Collector, Thousand Words, Uncle Chuck, Swiss Skydiver…

When I think of precocity, I think of Gulch or Summer Squall or King Glorious or Cryptoclearance winning early baby races in the summer. I don’t think of a horse that wins a low-rated maiden race at Santa Anita in October.

But relatively speaking, I guess in Shirreff’s world the horse was quite precocious…

Running sluggishly for 10 furlongs, losing to a horse you already defeated, and coming out a race injured are stallion-making qualities now?

Affirmed was a breed-shaping sire? In what country?

At least the “...and more” part is tenuously accurate since the author opted not to name Indian Charlie outright…

From the sound of it, Lane’s End breeds show horses not racehorses.

Whatever happened to stamina, durability, consistency, versatility, and--dare I say--longevity?

At the very least, a classic win (or two) would have been nice…

As always, you write the best posts and it's a pleasure reading them. The King Glorious mention made it that much better.

[Alabama Stakes]

I like the Summer Squall mention. I loved watching him as a 2 year old at Saratoga.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by moses

Someone check on Betsy! She’s the first person I think of whenever Honor AP is mentioned. I’m sure she’s going to be disappointed.

But seriously, it would be nice to see horses like this race deep into their 4YO year or later to see what they’re truly capable of. Without any details, hope the horse is alright.

You could say that....I’m absolutely crushed.

Honor A.P. suffered a tendon injury in the Derby...whatever anyone else thinks, I think he was an extremely talented colt who would have been even better next year. This takes all the wind from my sales - it’s going to take awhile for me to get over this.

I do want to say - I didn’t really read the other posts because I’m not in the mood to read about what mediocre horse he was, but I did see “one hit wonder” as I glanced through the thread, and I have to say I don’t understand the general disdain for the colt. He ran 6 times, won a grade 1, finished a very good second in the San Felipe to the eventual Derby winner off of a 5 month layoff and ran 4th in the Derby while injured. That’s all...have a nice day.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Betsy

This takes all the wind from my sales - it’s going to take awhile for me to get over this.

Considering the importance of September in the Thoroughbred industry, this is either a great pun, a Freudian slip, or both.

Who knows how talented the horse was--as with most flash-in-the-pans, his connections did him in.

[Dunbar]

Super post, Rollo.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Considering the importance of September in the Thoroughbred industry, this is either a great pun, a Freudian slip, or both.

Who knows how talented the horse was--as with most flash-in-the-pans, his connections did him in.

Trying to guess why Betsy used sales instead of my sail is tough, if I would have used the wrong sale you would have known I was just dumb.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by freddymo

...if I would have used the wrong sale you would have known I was just dumb.

When deciphering your posts, it isn't the "sails" I'm worried about...it's the number of "sheets" you've let go of that is important.

It's usually 3.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

When deciphering your posts, it isn't the "sails" I'm worried about...it's the number of "sheets" you've let go of that is important.

It's usually 3.

Never set sail before 5 pm

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Betsy

You could say that....I’m absolutely crushed.

Honor A.P. suffered a tendon injury in the Derby...whatever anyone else thinks, I think he was an extremely talented colt who would have been even better next year. This takes all the wind from my sales - it’s going to take awhile for me to get over this.

I do want to say - I didn’t really read the other posts because I’m not in the mood to read about what mediocre horse he was, but I did see “one hit wonder” as I glanced through the thread, and I have to say I don’t understand the general disdain for the colt. He ran 6 times, won a grade 1, finished a very good second in the San Felipe to the eventual Derby winner off of a 5 month layoff and ran 4th in the Derby while injured. That’s all...have a nice day.

Isn’t the general disdain being shown here more for that ridiculous fluff piece about him than the actual horse?

I mean, I like the horse, bet him in the Derby and found the retirement and especially that article pretty nauseating.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Isn’t the general disdain being shown here more for that ridiculous fluff piece about him than the actual horse?

I mean, I like the horse, bet him in the Derby and found the retirement and especially that article pretty nauseating.

Perhaps..as a huge fan of the horse, I love reading the articles as they make me feel better. I don’t view them with the cynicism that so many do. Let me make it clear - I don’t care if not everyone likes the horse; opinions make horse racing. What bothers me - not here so much as on board I visit more often is the need to rip apart his record, trash his agility, and pretty much display incredible ignorance about his races. I get it, he was 2 for 6..but Andy always says that wins are overrated to a degree. Also, you have to look at context. HAP ran very well in his debut, showed more promise breaking his maiden and then, off a 5 month layoff and a huge class jump, ran extremely well in the San Felipe. He took a step forward in the SA Derby. I think the Shared Belief turned many permanently against him, but he was severely undertrained for the race. As to the Derby, he ran even better than was first thought as he was on good legs. 6 starts - I think Honor A.P. accomplished a great deal, and I thought he was going to be even better later on and into next year.

If people want to dissect articles, go ahead - they have the right. I don’t think Bill Farish said anything wrong, certainly not to be poked fun of. But, no big deal - I’m not forced to read it.

Do I think HAP will be a good sire? I don’t know. His own sire, who I was deeply invested in since I loved him as a racehorse and since he’s Indy’s last big son at stud, has been promising but not and cold. That said, the fact that he’s an outcross to Mr. Prospector mares should help. I think Honor A.P. is a gorgeous horse and very talented - his retirement has been like a punch in the gut, but hopefully he will be a good sire.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Betsy

I think the Shared Belief turned many permanently against him, but he was severely undertrained for the race. As to the Derby, he ran even better than was first thought as he was on good legs.

More realistically, the horse was severely overtrained for the Kentucky Derby.

Presumably taking his cue from Mike Smith's inane guidance, Shirreffs had the horse perform more workouts than normal leading up to the Derby, as he breezed only a week after the Shared Belief. He then put in 3 workouts with a jockey up, over increasing distances, on tightened surfaces different from what the horse was training over in the mornings (each time he breezed a few minutes prior to the first race in the afternoons), with overzealous gallop outs. That's a ripe formula for "squeezing the lemon dry" as they say.

Never mind the horse being over-the-top, it was probably also his undoing as far as his subsequent leg injury.

Outside of Mike Smith's typical straw-clutching post-race commentary, not sure where the presumption originated that John Shirreffs forgot to train Honor A.P. for the Shared Belief. As you said, wins aren't everything and most people wouldn't have been surprised to see Shirreffs use the Shared Belief strictly for what it was---a prep race.

At any rate, Honor A.P. does have Mr. Prospector within 4 generations (Honor Code's 2nd dam is by Mr. P). That carefully worded blurb in the Lane's End press release about his dam being free of Mr. Prospector was probably another clever ploy to confuse potential clients that somehow breeding to him would avoid inbreeding to Mr. Prospector, which is not the case.

Truth be told, I'm not sure why one would be scared of inbreeding to Mr. Prospector anyways. This year alone, 4 of the top 5 3yo colts (Tiz The Law, Maxfield, Nadal, Charlatan) are inbred to Mr. Prospector. Now 3 of those are on the sidelines which presumably is why inbreeding to Mr. Prospector is frowned upon (unsoundness), but the genesis of those injuries aren't necessarily solely genetic (i.e. supertrainers burn through horses of all shapes and sizes).

Certainly I'd much rather have Mr. Prospector influencing my horse's pedigree than I would have Mike Smith influencing its training...

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

More realistically, the horse was severely overtrained for the Kentucky Derby.

Presumably taking his cue from Mike Smith's inane guidance, Shirreffs had the horse perform more workouts than normal leading up to the Derby, as he breezed only a week after the Shared Belief. He then put in 3 workouts with a jockey up, over increasing distances, on tightened surfaces different from what the horse was training over in the mornings (each time he breezed a few minutes prior to the first race in the afternoons), with overzealous gallop outs. That's a ripe formula for "squeezing the lemon dry" as they say.

Never mind the horse being over-the-top, it was probably also his undoing as far as his subsequent leg injury.

Outside of Mike Smith's typical straw-clutching post-race commentary, not sure where the presumption originated that John Shirreffs forgot to train Honor A.P. for the Shared Belief. As you said, wins aren't everything and most people wouldn't have been surprised to see Shirreffs use the Shared Belief strictly for what it was---a prep race.

At any rate, Honor A.P. does have Mr. Prospector within 4 generations (Honor Code's 2nd dam is by Mr. P). That carefully worded blurb in the Lane's End press release about his dam being free of Mr. Prospector was probably another clever ploy to confuse potential clients that somehow breeding to him would avoid inbreeding to Mr. Prospector, which is not the case.

Truth be told, I'm not sure why one would be scared of inbreeding to Mr. Prospector anyways. This year alone, 4 of the top 5 3yo colts (Tiz The Law, Maxfield, Nadal, Charlatan) are inbred to Mr. Prospector. Now 3 of those are on the sidelines which presumably is why inbreeding to Mr. Prospector is frowned upon (unsoundness), but the genesis of those injuries aren't necessarily solely genetic (i.e. supertrainers burn through horses of all shapes and sizes).

Certainly I'd much rather have Mr. Prospector influencing my horse's pedigree than I would have Mike Smith influencing its training...

Well, I thought those workouts were necessary because John had undertrained Honor A.P. for the Shared Belief ...he was working on behavioral issues. Personally, I expected him to win easily if he was at 80% or so, as he was for the San Felipe. Problem is, he got slammed by Cezanne at the start and ran erratically thereafter. Most racing media actually didn’t jump off the bandwagon - some did, but it was primarily fans on boards who thought the SB proved he was mediocre. I saw those pre-SB workouts - I don’t think he looked good at all - dull, frankly. So, I thought he definitely needed those faster workouts at DM. It turns out HAP got injured at the start of the Derby, probably in the NY Traffic incident, so we’ll never know if he was over the top. I didn’t think so - I thought he looked great in the week before the Derby.

Ugh, good point about HC’s second dam being by Mr. P - how did I not even think of that, lol? Still, Mr. P inbreeding for an HAP foal would be at least a few generations away on both sire and dam’s sides given that we are referring to his grandsons as broodmare sire (Distorted Humor, Speightstown, etc...) so....not that closer!

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Betsy

Perhaps..as a huge fan of the horse, I love reading the articles as they make me feel better. I don’t view them with the cynicism that so many do. Let me make it clear - I don’t care if not everyone likes the horse; opinions make horse racing. What bothers me - not here so much as on board I visit more often is the need to rip apart his record, trash his agility, and pretty much display incredible ignorance about his races. I get it, he was 2 for 6..but Andy always says that wins are overrated to a degree. Also, you have to look at context. HAP ran very well in his debut, showed more promise breaking his maiden and then, off a 5 month layoff and a huge class jump, ran extremely well in the San Felipe. He took a step forward in the SA Derby. I think the Shared Belief turned many permanently against him, but he was severely undertrained for the race. As to the Derby, he ran even better than was first thought as he was on good legs. 6 starts - I think Honor A.P. accomplished a great deal, and I thought he was going to be even better later on and into next year.

If people want to dissect articles, go ahead - they have the right. I don’t think Bill Farish said anything wrong, certainly not to be poked fun of. But, no big deal - I’m not forced to read it.

Do I think HAP will be a good sire? I don’t know. His own sire, who I was deeply invested in since I loved him as a racehorse and since he’s Indy’s last big son at stud, has been promising but not and cold. That said, the fact that he’s an outcross to Mr. Prospector mares should help. I think Honor A.P. is a gorgeous horse and very talented - his retirement has been like a punch in the gut, but hopefully he will be a good sire.

Why does it bother you that others see him as not as much as you do? It doesn't change your opinion so just let it roll off. Andy calls me an idiot all the time for my opinions and yet, none of them have changed because he disagrees.

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Why does it bother you that others see him as not as much as you do? It doesn't change your opinion so just let it roll off. Andy calls me an idiot all the time for my opinions and yet, none of them have changed because he disagrees.

It doesn’t bother me, King...I’ve posted on sports boards for years; if you can’t deal with various opinions, you really shouldn’t be posting in a place where people are naturally doing to disagree. My biggest issue in this case is that I’ve seen people say things about Honor A.P. that just weren’t true, like that he was a stone closer (and that’s why he’d have a bad trip in the Derby) and had no speed. I never really debated anyone’s opinion about the colt since opinions are just that .. unless they passed off opinions as fact (as in the above example).

[moses]

Originally Posted by Betsy

You could say that....I’m absolutely crushed.

Honor A.P. suffered a tendon injury in the Derby...whatever anyone else thinks, I think he was an extremely talented colt who would have been even better next year. This takes all the wind from my sales - it’s going to take awhile for me to get over this.

I do want to say - I didn’t really read the other posts because I’m not in the mood to read about what mediocre horse he was, but I did see “one hit wonder” as I glanced through the thread, and I have to say I don’t understand the general disdain for the colt. He ran 6 times, won a grade 1, finished a very good second in the San Felipe to the eventual Derby winner off of a 5 month layoff and ran 4th in the Derby while injured. That’s all...have a nice day.

I was interested in seeing him run and, I think, continue to get better.

Try not to let it get you too down. This sport is filled with bitter disappointments and crushing defeats. But the beauty (or perhaps tragedy) of it is that it only takes one instance to fall back in love with it.

I think what you’re seeing as disdain is really just a general lamentation about the state of the sport. Many owners would rather send a horse to stud than continue to race it. The general belief seems to be that the overall quality and competitiveness of races suffers as a result.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by moses

I think what you’re seeing as disdain is really just a general lamentation about the state of the sport. Many owners would rather send a horse to stud than continue to race it. The general belief seems to be that the overall quality and competitiveness of races suffers as a result.

Exactly!