Mother Goose

[jnunan4759]

Have to agree with Andy that it's sad to see Mother Goose a Gr II now. As he said, if you look at the past history, It's always been a premier race.

The reconfiguration of the days and schedules have shuffled things, but it is not all bad. The Belmont Stakes weekend was superb. It's different and change is always accompanied with some trial and error.

Plus, you have other tracks competing and horses can ship large distances fairly easily now.

Would really like to see it back as a Gr I. Think they pulled the trigger too quick on this one. Looked to me like a Gr I performance today. Super impressive.

[Konk]

Calling it a Gr2 is being very generous.
Not single Gr2 winner in it. Or even a Gr3.
Best it had to offer was a 125K stake winner.
The winner was a first level allowance winner.

It should not even be graded at this rate.

[cakes44]

Why was the reasoning behind switching it to 1 1/16th?

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by cakes44

Why was the reasoning behind switching it to 1 1/16th?

Sequence with (7/23) CCA Oaks (9f) and (8/19) Alabama (10f).

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Konk

Calling it a Gr2 is being very generous.
Not single Gr2 winner in it. Or even a Gr3.
Best it had to offer was a 125K stake winner.
The winner was a first level allowance winner.

It should not even be graded at this rate.

Except that's not how the grading of stakes works. Stakes are evaluated by the American Graded Stakes Committee on a 'rolling average' basis of field quality. Read about it here: https://toba.org/graded-stakes/ (See Grading Session Worksheet tab)

And here's the last nine Mother Goose winners to get a feel for what the race produces..

[Konk]

or what the race produces..

Or more meaningful to handicapping this year, what it produced.
When I see horse coming out of that Gr2, I will not be impressed as much as a Gr3 winner more than likely.
Maybe grades should be assigned after the race is run. Be more timely and applicable to the games bettors.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Konk

Maybe grades should be assigned after the race is run. Be more timely and applicable to the games bettors.

That's been discussed. Turf writer Gary West has been a proponent of that concept. But it doesn't seem fair to the connections pointing for races (especially 2+3yo stakes) to 'lose' quality of black type when there's no way to know how the foes are going to turn out medium/long term.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Except that's not how the grading of stakes works. Stakes are evaluated by the American Graded Stakes Committee on a 'rolling average' basis of field quality. Read about it here: https://toba.org/graded-stakes/ (See Grading Session Worksheet tab)

And here's the last nine Mother Goose winners to get a feel for what the race produces..

shouldnt you only list the winners based on the current structure that they set up with the CC Oaks and Alabama, and Acorn to start it off at a 1 mile? Not sure when that was, feels like about 5 years ago.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

shouldnt you only list the winners based on the current structure that they set up with the CC Oaks and Alabama, and Acorn to start it off at a 1 mile? Not sure when that was, feels like about 5 years ago.

That configuration (Acorn, Oaks, Alabama) started in 2010..

Acorn has been Belmont Day constant since mid-90's. Tried on Memorial Day '12/'13. Before mid-90's it bounced around throughout May.

Mother Goose 1-1/16 miles in 1957-58, 1-1/8 miles 1959-2009, Returned to 1 1/16 miles in 2010. Started as a Belmont Day (or vicinity) fixture before becoming a late June/early July standard in 1996.

CCA Oaks was 1-3/8 miles from 1919-1941 and 1944-1958; 1-1/4 miles 1990-1997 and 2004-2009; 1-1/2 miles 1942-1943, 1971-1989 & 1998-2003; Since 2010 when moved to Saratoga, 1-1/8 miles. Had been run late June/early July until transitioning to late July in mid-90's.

These 3 were the original Triple Tiara (1957-2002; 2007-2009); From 2003-2006, the Tiara was configured as the Goose, Oaks and Alabama.

Alabama, 10f since 1917 and a mid-August staple since its' inception, was initially 9f (1872-1916 more or less) with runnings at 8.5f and 12.5f a few times as well as once on the turf (1903).

[Alabama Stakes]

Alabama Stakes is also the closest thing to a beauty contest for hosses in existence. Nothing better looking than a 3 year old filly in August at the Spa

[cakes44]

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

Alabama Stakes is also the closest thing to a beauty contest for hosses in existence. Nothing better looking than a 3 year old filly in August at the Spa

Just keep your hands above the table, hoss.

[Alabama Stakes]

Originally Posted by cakes44

Just keep your hands above the table, hoss.

I married a good looking Italian girl. I'm all set.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Kasept

That configuration (Acorn, Oaks, Alabama) started in 2010..

Acorn has been Belmont Day constant since mid-90's. Tried on Memorial Day '12/'13. Before mid-90's it bounced around throughout May.

Mother Goose 1-1/16 miles in 1957-58, 1-1/8 miles 1959-2009, Returned to 1 1/16 miles in 2010. Started as a Belmont Day (or vicinity) fixture before becoming a late June/early July standard in 1996.

CCA Oaks was 1-3/8 miles from 1919-1941 and 1944-1958; 1-1/4 miles 1990-1997 and 2004-2009; 1-1/2 miles 1942-1943, 1971-1989 & 1998-2003; Since 2010 when moved to Saratoga, 1-1/8 miles. Had been run late June/early July until transitioning to late July in mid-90's.

These 3 were the original Triple Tiara (1957-2002; 2007-2009); From 2003-2006, the Tiara was configured as the Goose, Oaks and Alabama.

Alabama, 10f since 1917 and a mid-August staple since its' inception, was initially 9f (1872-1916 more or less) with runnings at 8.5f and 12.5f a few times as well as once on the turf (1903).

looking at the winners, and fields since 2010 it seems like its a touch below the CC Oaks and Alabama.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Kasept

That's been discussed. Turf writer Gary West has been a proponent of that concept. But it doesn't seem fair to the connections pointing for races (especially 2+3yo stakes) to 'lose' quality of black type when there's no way to know how the foes are going to turn out medium/long term.

Very true. I brought up the idea of grading races after they are run to several trainers in the late 80s. One of them said basically the same thing you say here. Another thing to consider is that it would further decrease the few meetings of top horses we have now. As it stands, we know which races are the best ones and where the best horses should be. Taking grades off would cause more trainers to handpick their schedule, claim their horse is the best, and say the competition should come to them.

[10 pnt move up]

having looked at the entire picture after the race

I think the winner is very good, and clearly when given things all her own way she can definitely win races this summer.

that being said, she set a moderate pace and was never under pressure and won like a good filly should when given the setup. At 2/5 next out its not exactly like she crushed under tough circumstances.

I actually liked the effort Lockdown made, she had to be used a lot to try to get to the loose horse, was a bit wide and tired late. Not sure of their prices next out but with the right field I can see a reversal of results.

[jnunan4759]

10 pnt, I can agree with all of that observation.

[RHT2004]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

having looked at the entire picture after the race

I think the winner is very good, and clearly when given things all her own way she can definitely win races this summer.

that being said, she set a moderate pace and was never under pressure and won like a good filly should when given the setup. At 2/5 next out its not exactly like she crushed under tough circumstances.

I actually liked the effort Lockdown made, she had to be used a lot to try to get to the loose horse, was a bit wide and tired late. Not sure of their prices next out but with the right field I can see a reversal of results.

Love Lockdown moving forward said it in the other thread. The start cost her huge. Think she's sitting on a .massive Saratoga.