Who Are You Talking To John?

[randallscott35]

This quote is offensive.

John Walsh, the simulcast director at Hawthorne Race Course in Cicero, Illinois, said that bettors at his track consistently request that bet minimums be lowered. But, to the chagrin of many horseplayers who maintain that takeout rates are too high, Walsh also said, “I never hear anyone say anything about a takeout rate unless I read a blog.”

http://www.drf.com/news/fractional-w...racks-and-fans

[Calzone Lord]

The guy is clueless. And he's saying the small-fry bettors he talks with at Hawthorne are clueless as well. So what?

How many suits in this game know anything about horse racing?

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

The guy is clueless. And he's saying the small-fry bettors he talks with at Hawthorne are clueless as well. So what?

How many suits in this game know anything about horse racing?

Which is why I am seriously considering no longer playing. Dead serious. Bettors are treated like they are the problem, not the solution.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

This quote is offensive.

John Walsh, the simulcast director at Hawthorne Race Course in Cicero, Illinois, said that bettors at his track consistently request that bet minimums be lowered. But, to the chagrin of many horseplayers who maintain that takeout rates are too high, Walsh also said, “I never hear anyone say anything about a takeout rate unless I read a blog.”

http://www.drf.com/news/fractional-w...racks-and-fans

There is a worse quote in there. Some of these track execs have a vision that makes very little sense to me.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

The guy is clueless. And he's saying the small-fry bettors he talks with at Hawthorne are clueless as well. So what?

How many suits in this game know anything about horse racing?

Exactly.

Hawthorne is a very interesting crowd, and lets just say that it isnt for the faint of heart. If your rocking some BBQ or ketchup stains, and half your teeth, your part of the IN crowd

[joeydb]

Ugh. It's hard to believe that consistent messaging along the lines of "takeout doesn't matter" is spontaneous. If this sport had a national chairman, I'd say that talking points to this effect were being distributed.

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by Scav

Exactly.

Hawthorne is a very interesting crowd, and lets just say that it isnt for the faint of heart. If your rocking some BBQ or ketchup stains, and half your teeth, your part of the IN crowd

And the men are worse!

[Travis Stone]

At the risk of getting hit with tomatoes, he's partially right.

I'm NOT saying that takeout is not an issue, but I've never heard anyone in our building say, "Your takeout is too high." It is generally an issue left to message boards, blogs and the occasional article.

Not to sound like an industry shill, but the reality is folks who believe the takeout is too high and talk about it out loud are currently receiving rebates, stout ones to boot. Sorry, but it's a fact. Also, many of them refer others to their current ADW and get a slice of their action as well.

So the whole takeout debate, in my opinion, is frustrating because on one hand are legitimate arguments for reduction and on the other are folks clamoring for them, claiming they don't bet this or that, but ultimately, their rebates reduce the takeout down to what they're clamoring for in the first place.

For what it's worth. Again, please don't take this post to mean I'm against takeout reduction, which is not true.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

At the risk of getting hit with tomatoes, he's partially right.

I'm NOT saying that takeout is not an issue, but I've never heard anyone in our building say, "Your takeout is too high." It is generally an issue left to message boards, blogs and the occasional article.

Not to sound like an industry shill, but the reality is folks who believe the takeout is too high and talk about it out loud are currently receiving rebates, stout ones to boot. Sorry, but it's a fact. Also, many of them refer others to their current ADW and get a slice of their action as well.

So the whole takeout debate, in my opinion, is frustrating because on one hand are legitimate arguments for reduction and on the other are folks clamoring for them, claiming they don't bet this or that, but ultimately, their rebates reduce the takeout down to what they're clamoring for in the first place.

For what it's worth. Again, please don't take this post to mean I'm against takeout reduction, which is not true.

I'll let Doug respond to this....I would never throw tomatoes at you Travis, I am a big fan of yours.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

At the risk of getting hit with tomatoes, he's partially right.

I'm NOT saying that takeout is not an issue, but I've never heard anyone in our building say, "Your takeout is too high." It is generally an issue left to message boards, blogs and the occasional article.

Not to sound like an industry shill, but the reality is folks who believe the takeout is too high and talk about it out loud are currently receiving rebates, stout ones to boot. Sorry, but it's a fact. Also, many of them refer others to their current ADW and get a slice of their action as well.

So the whole takeout debate, in my opinion, is frustrating because on one hand are legitimate arguments for reduction and on the other are folks clamoring for them, claiming they don't bet this or that, but ultimately, their rebates reduce the takeout down to what they're clamoring for in the first place.

For what it's worth. Again, please don't take this post to mean I'm against takeout reduction, which is not true.

The people that care about takeout are probably wagering a much (and I would say the majority) of the wagering dollars.

The statement completely ignores long term growth in the game.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

The people that care about takeout are probably wagering a much (and I would say the majority) of the wagering dollars.

The statement completely ignores long term growth in the game.

And many of them "Not complaining" realize that it is falling on deaf ears and have moved offshore for their rebates.

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

The people that care about takeout are probably wagering a much (and I would say the majority) of the wagering dollars.

Right... anyone wagering a serious amount of coin is currently receiving a rebate. I think a lot of jaws would drop if people understood how much handle truly comes from big players. 20% of national handle alone comes from five groups, and you can bet they're getting a pretty sweet rebate.

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

The statement completely ignores long term growth in the game.

I'd be willing to bet, given the chance, that he'd make his point with softer language. That's why I said partially right.

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by jms62

And many of them "Not complaining" realize that it is falling on deaf ears and have moved offshore for their rebates.

You don't need to go offshore for rebates.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

You don't need to go offshore for rebates.

You do if you don't live in the "Right" State.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by jms62

You do if you don't live in the "Right" State.

Correctumundo.

Travis, unfortunately your post kind of proves the point. The people in the game don't get it. They figure people are dumb and will continue to bet no matter what. That might be true at **** tracks like Hawthorne but it isn't true of big players....Rebates wouldn't need to exist if the track takeout was different to begin with. And 2-4% for WPS gets you down to what like 11-14% for WPS wagers. Excuse me if that doesn't blow my skirt up...If enough players like myself walk, there is no game.

[joeydb]

I've never played a rebate shop yet. I just want to place a regular bet but not get raped on takeout. Is that so unreasonable?

And yeah - assuming people will play the same volume "no matter what" is ridiculous. The casinos here in Atlantic City make the same mistake. They won't lower table minimums and now they are starving. Casinos nearly empty most of the week for all except Borgata.

Not everyone is an addict. In fact most gamblers, even ones who play regularly, have a casual to moderate interest.

Make the takeout high enough and you are more guaranteed to lose. It's like a legitimate card game becoming "Three Card Monty"

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

Right... anyone wagering a serious amount of coin is currently receiving a rebate.

This is false, as others have pointed out. Rebates are great, but not everyone has access to them and even in states that allow them, the threshold for getting one varies. More importantly, rebates only reward volume betting, they don't reward winning, which is what the industry should be focusing on - returning more of the pools to winning ticket holders, because that's better in the long term for players of all bankroll sizes.

The quote is offensive, but it's just the latest in a long line of offensive rhetoric about horseplayers by the people in charge of the sport. The notion of sophisticated horseplayers who treat the game with the seriousness of any other investment is completely lost on most of the decision-makers in horse racing. Yet these are the people who are supposed to be looking out for our game when dealing with regressive government officials. It makes me appreciate all the more what NYRA has done in the past year, making an effort to listen to all of its customers and rolling out tangible improvements like the 15% Pick 5 as a result.

It's going to take a lot more than that to reform things though, and as long as people like Walsh are making business decisions based on what a few jadrools in the grandstand say, the battle remains a steeply uphill one.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

This is false, as others have pointed out. Rebates are great, but not everyone has access to them and even in states that allow them, the threshold for getting one varies. More importantly, rebates only reward volume betting, they don't reward winning, which is what the industry should be focusing on - returning more of the pools to winning ticket holders, because that's better in the long term for players of all bankroll sizes.

The quote is offensive, but it's just the latest in a long line of offensive rhetoric about horseplayers by the people in charge of the sport. The notion of sophisticated horseplayers who treat the game with the seriousness of any other investment is completely lost on most of the decision-makers in this sport. Yet these are the people who are supposed to be looking out for our game when dealing with regressive government officials. It makes me appreciate all the more what NYRA has done in the past year, making an effort to listen to its customers and rolling out tangible improvements like the 15% Pick 5 as a result.

It's going to take a lot more than that to reform things though, and as long as people like Walsh are making business decisions based on what a few jadrools in the grandstand say, the battle remains a steeply uphill one.

[3kings]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

This is false, as others have pointed out. Rebates are great, but not everyone has access to them and even in states that allow them, the threshold for getting one varies. More importantly, rebates only reward volume betting, they don't reward winning, which is what the industry should be focusing on - returning more of the pools to winning ticket holders, because that's better in the long term for players of all bankroll sizes.

The quote is offensive, but it's just the latest in a long line of offensive rhetoric about horseplayers by the people in charge of the sport. The notion of sophisticated horseplayers who treat the game with the seriousness of any other investment is completely lost on most of the decision-makers in horse racing. Yet these are the people who are supposed to be looking out for our game when dealing with regressive government officials. It makes me appreciate all the more what NYRA has done in the past year, making an effort to listen to all of its customers and rolling out tangible improvements like the 15% Pick 5 as a result.

It's going to take a lot more than that to reform things though, and as long as people like Walsh are making business decisions based on what a few jadrools in the grandstand say, the battle remains a steeply uphill one.

Had to look jadrool up. Thank you, as I'm always looking to improve my vocabulary.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

This is false, as others have pointed out. Rebates are great, but not everyone has access to them and even in states that allow them, the threshold for getting one varies. More importantly, rebates only reward volume betting, they don't reward winning, which is what the industry should be focusing on - returning more of the pools to winning ticket holders, because that's better in the long term for players of all bankroll sizes.

The quote is offensive, but it's just the latest in a long line of offensive rhetoric about horseplayers by the people in charge of the sport. The notion of sophisticated horseplayers who treat the game with the seriousness of any other investment is completely lost on most of the decision-makers in horse racing. Yet these are the people who are supposed to be looking out for our game when dealing with regressive government officials. It makes me appreciate all the more what NYRA has done in the past year, making an effort to listen to all of its customers and rolling out tangible improvements like the 15% Pick 5 as a result.

It's going to take a lot more than that to reform things though, and as long as people like Walsh are making business decisions based on what a few jadrools in the grandstand say, the battle remains a steeply uphill one.

Joey, anyone betting serious money is getting a rebate. It's not a discussion.