BC to phase out raceday meds; No Lasix for '12 Juvenile events

[JJP]

Why not just make the damned purses in Euros? Oh yeah, the Euro will probably be non-existant by the 2012 running.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

Who says they are going to be "Lasix off" in the BC only? If you know the BC races are Lasix off, maybe horses will be prepared without Lasix in advance of that knowledge...

Overall, I just think it was premature to say it will automatically be bad betting.

Please enlighten us on the positives of banning Lasix on a race day. Please don't make the nonsensical claims that it masks other drugs or that it has weakened the breed.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by JJP

Why not just make the damned purses in Euros? Oh yeah, the Euro will probably be non-existant by the 2012 running.

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by pointman

Please enlighten us on the positives of banning Lasix on a race day. Please don't make the nonsensical claims that it masks other drugs or that it has weakened the breed.

I have made no comments in this thread on whether banning Lasix is good or not. I'm saying that it is foolishly premature to say it will be bad betting, and equally premature to assume all horses in the 2013 BC will be running "Lasix off."

[Cannon Shell]

Depending on the state in which the BC is held, they may not be able to ban Lasix. You can't just take your horse off when you want and then go back on when you want. The BC to my knowledge has no power to supersede the rules of racing in an individual state so I don't think this is a settled issue.

By the way here is an interesting article from years ago when everything ws supposedly wonderful

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-10-...1_horse-racing

Another one
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/199...orsemen-l-word


http://articles.latimes.com/1992-05-...le-crown-races

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Depending on the state in which the BC is held, they may not be able to ban Lasix. You can't just take your horse off when you want and then go back on when you want. The BC to my knowledge has no power to supersede the rules of racing in an individual state so I don't think this is a settled issue.

By the way here is an interesting article from years ago when everything ws supposedly wonderful

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-10-...1_horse-racing

Another one
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/199...orsemen-l-word


http://articles.latimes.com/1992-05-...le-crown-races

It's just more useless mouth flapping by the BC folks. I'm surprised anyone here pays it any credence.

[slotdirt]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Depending on the state in which the BC is held, they may not be able to ban Lasix. You can't just take your horse off when you want and then go back on when you want. The BC to my knowledge has no power to supersede the rules of racing in an individual state so I don't think this is a settled issue.

By the way here is an interesting article from years ago when everything ws supposedly wonderful

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-10-...1_horse-racing

Another one
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/199...orsemen-l-word


http://articles.latimes.com/1992-05-...le-crown-races

Interesting thought. I wonder what legal standing the BC would have to force entrants to not be running with a raceday medication that is otherwise legal in a particular state.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Interesting thought. I wonder what legal standing the BC would have to force entrants to not be running with a raceday medication that is otherwise legal in a particular state.

I expect that it's legal to be more restrictive. The problem would be if they wanted to be less so. For instance, say the BC wanted to allow cobra venom, but the state forbids it, they're not gonna get that through. A state may have a 21 and older law on alcohol, but some counties are dry or limit when you can purchase it. Saying they're doing it in the public interest or whatever is probably all it takes if they really think that's what they're doing.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

I expect that it's legal to be more restrictive. The problem would be if they wanted to be less so. For instance, say the BC wanted to allow cobra venom, but the state forbids it, they're not gonna get that through. A state may have a 21 and older law on alcohol, but some counties are dry or limit when you can purchase it. Saying they're doing it in the public interest or whatever is probably all it takes if they really think that's what they're doing.

They can make whatever restrictive rules they want but in some states you HAVE to run on lasix if you have been running on it and need a vet reason to come off of it. Not to mention that there may be trouble for those who do go ahead and take off lasix as they will have to "re-qualify" for Lasix afterwards meaning 30 days and if they happen to be unfortunate to bleed after a race out of their nose again they would be subject to 90 days and with another incident be barred.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

They can make whatever restrictive rules they want but in some states you HAVE to run on lasix if you have been running on it and need a vet reason to come off of it. Not to mention that there may be trouble for those who do go ahead and take off lasix as they will have to "re-qualify" for Lasix afterwards meaning 30 days and if they happen to be unfortunate to bleed after a race out of their nose again they would be subject to 90 days and with another incident be barred.

Can't imagine that'd be a problem for Euros,etc. making their first and only start of the year in the US. I'm sure if someone wants to run sans lasix in the BC, there are ways to get vet approval, although who wants the Life At Ten-esque drama of a horse bleeding badly who shouldn't have been allowed to try to race w/o lasix in the first place. This sounds like an absolute mess of an untangling of regulations, and then there's the prospect of many bloody noses.

Forgive me, but I'm not clear on the process and policies around going on/off lasix in the various jurisdictions. About the re-qualifying, what's involved? Do you mean they have to run again in 30 days on lasix or not run for 30 days before going back on, or what? If it's the latter, many of the BC horses are either leaving the country, retiring (well, hopefully not the juveniles), or are done for the year. I imagine whatever the drug policy situation, someone's gonna fall into the 'sucks to be you' group where the BC's decided it's just not a big enough problem to work around, and it's no skin off their nose.

[slotdirt]

It just occurs to me that the Breeders Cup would have to get state regulators buy-in to make this work. I want to know what track wants to deal with the headache of lasix being permissable on a Thursday, and even for a couple races on Friday morning, then not for the Breeders Cup races Friday through Saturday. The whole thing just seems like a massive logistical headache.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Can't imagine that'd be a problem for Euros,etc. making their first and only start of the year in the US. I'm sure if someone wants to run sans lasix in the BC, there are ways to get vet approval, although who wants the Life At Ten-esque drama of a horse bleeding badly who shouldn't have been allowed to try to race w/o lasix in the first place. This sounds like an absolute mess of an untangling of regulations, and then there's the prospect of many bloody noses.

Forgive me, but I'm not clear on the process and policies around going on/off lasix in the various jurisdictions. About the re-qualifying, what's involved? Do you mean they have to run again in 30 days on lasix or not run for 30 days before going back on, or what? If it's the latter, many of the BC horses are either leaving the country, retiring (well, hopefully not the juveniles), or are done for the year. I imagine whatever the drug policy situation, someone's gonna fall into the 'sucks to be you' group where the BC's decided it's just not a big enough problem to work around, and it's no skin off their nose.

The Euros arent the issue, it is the US horses that intend on running in the US post BC. In order to "requalify" in some states you have to basically declare a bleeding incident which in effect makes you a 2 time bleeder and prevents you from running for 30 days post requalification.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

It just occurs to me that the Breeders Cup would have to get state regulators buy-in to make this work. I want to know what track wants to deal with the headache of lasix being permissable on a Thursday, and even for a couple races on Friday morning, then not for the Breeders Cup races Friday through Saturday. The whole thing just seems like a massive logistical headache.

I don't think the logistics are the issue though there would seem to be a certain double standard in allowing you to bet on some races with Lasix and other without. Again it seem naive on the part of the BC and opponents of Lasix in general to act like this is some huge performance enhancer 25 years after it has been introduced and NOT seem to the vaunted general public like they haven't been duped for those years. It seems to me that racing loses a lot more credibility to its customers (I really still could care less what the rest of the world supposedly thinks) with the criticism of horseman and exaggeration as to what Lasix is and does.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Again it seem naive on the part of the BC and opponents of Lasix in general to act like this is some huge performance enhancer 25 years after it has been introduced

Everyone knows lasix slows a horse down a tad, and hasn't been able to hide anything via "urine dilution" in two decades.

It is a performance enhancer in that yes, it allows horses to run fast and hard while attenuating bleeding. In my mind it would be cruelty to try and run horses on dirt, fast, like we do in American racing, without lasix. Even in mild bleeders, it attenuates lung scarring and harm to performance.

Sure, you can say you want to eliminate lasix, and change the sport to encourage non-bleeder genetics, but I doubt the sport would be able to survive that. It's an awful big reach. That would take 20 years, at least.
An admirable goal, but not quick nor easy.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

Everyone knows lasix slows a horse down a tad, and hasn't been able to hide anything via "urine dilution" in two decades.

It is a performance enhancer in that yes, it allows horses to run fast and hard while attenuating bleeding. In my mind it would be cruelty to try and run horses on dirt, fast, like we do in American racing, without lasix. Even in mild bleeders, it attenuates lung scarring and harm to performance.

Sure, you can say you want to eliminate lasix, and change the sport to encourage non-bleeder genetics, but I doubt the sport would be able to survive that. It's an awful big reach. That would take 20 years, at least.
An admirable goal, but not quick nor easy.

The idea that you can purge the "gene pool" of bleeders is so ridiculous even in a sport where most people are clueless.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The idea that you can purge the "gene pool" of bleeders is so ridiculous even in a sport where most people are clueless.

You don't think restricting breeding to maybe one out of every 50 horses would work, huh?

I suppose we could start from cold scratch again via importing bloodstock.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

You don't think restricting breeding to maybe one out of every 50 horses would work, huh?

I suppose we could start from cold scratch again via importing bloodstock.

The entire idea that the breed has somehow changed is completely unproven and immeasurable. The idea that a minute factor like Lasix affects the breed so negatively that its elimination will lead to some genetic revolution is pure folly.

[Alan07]

Gulfstream Park owner Frank Stronach has asked Florida regulators to help him implement a program that would phase out all raceday medication, including Lasix, for 3-year-olds at the track, beginning with the 2011-12 meeting.
http://www.drf.com/news/stronach-ask...day-medication


Guess Frankie wants more 3 year olds to go to Tampa.