A.P. Warrior retired; to stand at Stonewall

#1 10-23-2006, 05:42 PM

This blows my mind....Fulton sold him to Stonewall and he was instantly retired and will stand in 2007. Injury would be the initial guess, but actually Sherriffs said that he was 100% sound and that it was NOT AT ALL an injury issue.

If thats the case, has he really accomplished enough through 3 to retire him and expect his accomplishments (or lack there of IMO) to make him marketable to the Kentucky breeders at a reasonable stud fee?

The fact is that most A.P. Indys aren't at their best until they get older, so if A.P. Warrior was 100% sound then why not try to race him another year or two and give him a chance to improve into a solid handicap horse and build a resume of a worthy stallion that could command a decent stud fee. God knows he has the pedigree...he just lacks racing credentials to this point IMO.

I don't get this at all. He can't expect to stand for more tha $10,000 - $12,500, and to me his upside to improve as a racehorse and knock off some more graded stakes wins at 4 and maybe even 5 to improve his status is much better than allowing him to go to stud not at the fee range he'll have to stand at - especially if he is healthy enough to do it.

Strange and disappointing...the horse was never a world beater but he gave off the impression that he possessed an upside to be better.....I wish they would have given him the chance...

#2 10-23-2006, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

This blows my mind....Fulton sold him to Stonewall and he was instantly retired and will stand in 2007. Injury would be the initial guess, but actually Sherriffs said that he was 100% sound and that it was NOT AT ALL an injury issue.

If thats the case, has he really accomplished enough through 3 to retire him and expect his accomplishments (or lack there of IMO) to make him marketable to the Kentucky breeders at a reasonable stud fee?

The fact is that most A.P. Indys aren't at their best until they get older, so if A.P. Warrior was 100% sound then why not try to race him another year or two and give him a chance to improve into a solid handicap horse and build a resume of a worthy stallion that could command a decent stud fee. God knows he has the pedigree...he just lacks racing credentials to this point IMO.

I don't get this at all. He can't expect to stand for more tha $10,000 - $12,500, and to me his upside to improve as a racehorse and knock off some more graded stakes wins at 4 and maybe even 5 to improve his status is much better than allowing him to go to stud not at the fee range he'll have to stand at - especially if he is healthy enough to do it.

Strange and disappointing...the horse was never a world beater but he gave off the impression that he possessed an upside to be better.....I wish they would have given him the chance...

Joel,
The rush for AP Indy blood in the commercial breeding marketplace has been insane. Congrats, Suave, and now Ap Warrior will all be going to stud next year.
It actually makes a lot of sense. Bernadini will be out of reach for most breeders so going to a son of AP Indy is the next best thing in their minds.
Even in NY a horse named Anasheed will be standing here next year. I remember him, he was a slow as a kid on the short bus. Yet people seem to be really interested in going to him because hes a son of Ap Indy.
You have to seize the moment and capitalize on whats hot.

#3 10-23-2006, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

Joel,
The rush for AP Indy blood in the commercial breeding marketplace has been insane. Congrats, Suave, and now Ap Warrior will all be going to stud next year.
It actually makes a lot of sense. Bernadini will be out of reach for most breeders so going to a son of AP Indy is the next best thing in their minds.
Even in NY a horse named Anasheed will be standing here next year. I remember him, he was a slow as a kid on the short bus. Yet people seem to be really interested in going to him because hes a son of Ap Indy.
You have to seize the moment and capitalize on whats hot.

I understand A.P. Indy's repect right now in the marketplace, but still...you have to assume he'll remain hot and only get hotter. I mean, hell, A.P. Indy is just now starting to be a sire of sires because he just started getting studs out in the market 2-3 years ago with horses like Golden Missile....I doubt anyone foresees a deprciation in that sirelines stock as much as an likely appreciation.

I just think the upside is such that they are doing an injustice to the horse by retiring him. I really do. You can't just retire every som of A.P. Indy now because they are 'hot'. Especially the ones who haven't proved all they could prove...A.P. Warrior still has something left to prove IMO and belongs on the race track.

I am breeding to a couple of different A.P. Indy horses this year and have bred to a couple the past few years - but I wouldn't look twice at A.P. Warrior for a breed.....he doesn't hold a very good reputation AT ALL to me in terms of genuinely being one of teh best of his generation...he needed to run at 4 to prove that IMO...

#4 10-23-2006, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

I understand A.P. Indy's repect right now in the marketplace, but still...you have to assume he'll remain hot and only get hotter. I mean, hell, A.P. Indy is just now starting to be a sire of sires because he just started getting studs out in the market 2-3 years ago with horses like Golden Missile....I doubt anyone foresees a deprciation in that sirelines stock as much as an likely appreciation.

I just think the upside is such that they are doing an injustice to the horse by retiring him. I really do. You can't just retire every som of A.P. Indy now because they are 'hot'. Especially the ones who haven't proved all they could prove...A.P. Warrior still has something left to prove IMO and belongs on the race track.

I am breeding to a couple of different A.P. Indy horses this year and have bred to a couple the past few years - but I wouldn't look twice at A.P. Warrior for a breed.....he doesn't hold a very good reputation AT ALL to me in terms of genuinely being one of teh best of his generation...he needed to run at 4 to prove that IMO...

I don't disagree, but they made the guy a tremendous offer.

blackthroatedwind · #5 10-23-2006, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

I remember him, he was a slow as a kid on the short bus.

You didn't really mean to make this allusion...did ya Archie?

#6 10-23-2006, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

You didn't really mean to make this allusion...did ya Archie?

Surely you remember this horse. He was slower than the kid who grew up next to the power plant.

blackthroatedwind · #7 10-23-2006, 06:16 PM

I was alluding to making fun of " special kids ".

I actually don't remember that horse off-hand.

#8 10-23-2006, 06:17 PM

BTW, lol, I assume the Archie part was a tribute to Archie Bunker.
I grew up about 80 miles above NYC and it was a real melting pot. We were telling ethnic jokes at like age 8 taking shots at one another.
You had your EYE-talians, your polacks, etc. It was a brutal crowd where you had to develop thick skin before you left grade school.

#9 10-23-2006, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I was alluding to making fun of " special kids ".

I actually don't remember that horse off-hand.

I actually have a heartbreaking tale of interaction with someone "special" today that would make anyone here feel guilty as hell about complaining about any of the things that we complain about on a daily basis. Probably the saddest thing I ever saw in person. Still has me shaken, so maybe thats why it was in my head when I made that allusion.

#10 10-23-2006, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

I don't disagree, but they made the guy a tremendous offer.

Based on the formula, it couldn't have been more than $4 million IMO...(I never saw a price, was it disclosed?)...hell, he was bought as a yearling for $1 million and has a 2-year-old and yearling that was also bought for seven figures and a yearliong that was just bought for a few milliion whom are both full siblings that could further flatter his reputation and enhance his value down the road if he sticks around and races a year or two more with any success at all.

Based on what he'll stand for in the marketplace and his probabe stud deal, I just think he has more value on the track at this point...I really do - but we'll never know I guess.

Betsy · #11 10-23-2006, 06:44 PM

I am the biggest AP Indy fan in the world, but I don't like this horse at all. He was completely ungenuine - his poor efforts far outweighed his good ones, and usually he didn't try at all. For a graded stakes winner on turf and dirt, APW was not very good. I'm sure they retired him because, with further racing, all APW would have done was to continue to lower his potential stud fee. Smart move by the owner - I'm sure John Shirreffs advised him that he could do nothing further with this colt.

Old Trieste's premature death was a shame - that horse had bad luck when he had any luck at all. I really like Malibu Moon and adore Pulpit. Frankly, I'm not that high on Congrats. I thought he was a great TC prospect as a two year old, but he was just a rather decent grade 3 type for most of his career. I'm much higher on his full brother, Flatter, who was lightly raced and relatively untested, but very fast. I think Claiborne made the right move in keeping him instead of Congrats.

#12 10-23-2006, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

I actually have a heartbreaking tale of interaction with someone "special" today that would make anyone here feel guilty as hell about complaining about any of the things that we complain about on a daily basis. Probably the saddest thing I ever saw in person. Still has me shaken, so maybe thats why it was in my head when I made that allusion.

Just no making fun of midgets...I have a midget girlfriend that I'm nuts over

#13 10-23-2006, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Just no making fun of midgets...I have a midget girlfriend that I'm nuts over

You and Denny Crane on Boston Legal!!!

#14 10-23-2006, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betsy

I am the biggest AP Indy fan in the world, but I don't like this horse at all. He was completely ungenuine - his poor efforts far outweighed his good ones, and usually he didn't try at all. For a graded stakes winner on turf and dirt, APW was not very good. I'm sure they retired him because, with further racing, all APW would have done was to continue to lower his potential stud fee. Smart move by the owner - I'm sure John Shirreffs advised him that he could do nothing further with this colt.

Turf was not his thing...he wasn't bred for it and he wasn't ever going to be beter on it than dirt...

I actually have the opposte logic in this case....he sin't respected as being genuine right now by people in the racing circles, so he could only enhance his value IMO.....some of his worst characteristics - like not being very game and being mentally immature on regular occasion - were of the variety that you could assume he'd improve with age and mental maturity. They never gave the horse time to get older and for the proverbial 'light bulb' to go off in his head.....I think he actually possessed the upside to be a better older horse for mental reasons alone...you always got the impression that he hadn't quite figured it out yet and that he was not running at his full potential. So, with that sort of upside why not give him the chance to fulfill his potential and run at 4?

Danzig · #15 10-23-2006, 06:55 PM

when i read the article the other day, and read shirreffs saying how APW showed such heart, always dug in when other horses came at him, etc etc, i thought how do you know? this guy didn't run enough to show anything!

this is going to happen more and more often--all these farms are going to be running each other over trying to get the next big stud. and the only way to compete is to take a shot at some of these other, relatively unknown horses.
just like everyone trying to jump on every first time good looking winner.

if the sheiks weren't horse happy, this bubble would have burst already. give it time.

Cajungator26 · #16 10-23-2006, 07:31 PM

His ped is so similar to Bernardini's, I can see why they retired him early. Personally, I don't understand why they would retire a perfectly sound horse that probably had more to offer, but hey, I don't own him. I actually liked him a lot more than Point Determined for what it's worth.

#17 10-23-2006, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oracle80

You and Denny Crane on Boston Legal!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh6ASTomgII

The Badger!!

Cajungator26 · #18 10-23-2006, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh6ASTomgII

The Badger!!

LMFAO!!!

OMG, that is too damn funny!!!

#19 10-23-2006, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

His ped is so similar to Bernardini's, I can see why they retired him early. Personally, I don't understand why they would retire a perfectly sound horse that probably had more to offer, but hey, I don't own him. I actually liked him a lot more than Point Determined for what it's worth.

Actually, I think the ONLY reason he is going to stud is because he has a percieved value due to the fact that he is an A.P. Indy out of a Quiet American mare like Bernardini is - so the marketing campaign can be tailored towards that.....

Still, he is and always will be unfulfilled talent....

Bernardini will stand anywhere from $200,000 - $250,000 IMO...he is that marketable commercially...maybe Stonewall is going to use the "Get to a graded stakes winner bred the same as Bernardini for 5% of the price" angle....

Cajungator26 · #20 10-23-2006, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

Actually, I think the ONLY reason he is going to stud is because he has a percieved value due to the fact that he is an A.P. Indy out of a Quiet American mare like Bernardini is - so the marketing campaign can be tailored towards that.....

Still, he is and always will be unfulfilled talent....

Bernardini will stand anywhere from $200,000 - $250,000 IMO...he is that marketable commercially...maybe Stonewall is going to use the "Get to a graded stakes winner bred the same as Bernardini for 5% of the price" angle....

I think that's precisely what they're going to do, unfortunately. And I truly believe that people will send their mares to him for that very reason.