Derby VS Twin Spires - '71-to-'80

[The Indomitable DrugS]

For a time in the old days - they would run an 8.5f race for 3-year-olds called 'The Twin Spires Purse' one race before the KY Derby every year. The Twin Spires would translate into about a 75K ungraded Stakes today .. though it's placement late on the Derby card would make it an attractive race.

I have charts for the '71 through '80 runnings - minus '72. Believe it or not - one year, the Twin Spires actually went faster than Derby....


1980: Twin Spires: 1:44.40 (Stutz Blackhawk 1.25 lengths over Sun Catcher) Derby: 2:02.00 (Genuine Risk)

1979: 1:46.00 (Seethreepeo by 6 lengths over Good and Early) - Derby: 2:02.40 (Spectacular Bid)

1978: 1:43.40 (Batonnier by 8 lengths over Julep Cup) - Derby: 2:01.20 (Affirmed)

1977: 1:44.60 (Satan's Thunder dead-heat with A letter to Harry) - 2:02.20 Seattle Slew

1976: 1:44.80 (No Link Neck over Dream N' be Lucky) - Bold Forbes 2:01.60

1975: 1:44.40 (Ruggle's Ferry by 7 over Marauding) - Foolish Pleasure 2:02.00

1974: 1:43.40 (Silver Florin by 6 over Don't be late Jim) - 2:04.00 Cannonade

1973: 1:43.80 (Knightly Dawn by 2 over Crimson Falcon) - 1:59.40 Secretariat

1972: No result charts

1971: 1:43.60 (Nalees Man by 4 over Secret Control) - 2:03.20 (Canonero II)


By speed figure - fastest Kentucky Derby winners in relation to the Twin Spires winner:

Secretariat +39 over Knightly Dawn
Spectacular Bid +34 over Seethreepeo
Bold Forbes +30 over No Link
Foolish Pleasure +23 over Ruggle's Ferry
Seattle Slew +23 over Dead Heat winners
Genuine Risk +23 over Stutz Blackhawk
Affirmed +19 over Batonnier
Cannonero II +5 over Nalees Man
Cannonade -4 VS Silver Florin

I believe Silver Florin was the lone Twin Spires winner to subquently win two Graded Stakes that year. And the Derby that year did have a record field size - but still - Jesus the '74 Derby was a slow race.

Affirmed really gets cheated in this comparison because 8-length winner Batonnier was a solid horse - winning the Gr 3 Illinois Derby and running 2nd in the Grade 1 Swaps. Batonnier is maybe best known for siring Cavonnier - who came within a nose of winning the KY Derby.


Here's the relationship between Derby winner over Twin Spires 2nd place finisher - from fastest to slowest.


Spectacular Bid +44
Secretariat +42
Foolish Pleasure +35
Affirmed +32
Bold Forbes +30
Genuine Risk +25
Seattle Slew +23
Cannonero II +12
Cannonade +6

Foolish Pleasure might be best remembered for being the other horse in the match race against Ruffian where Ruffian broke down - but damn - he was a pretty friggen nice race horse.

After Foolish Pleasure won the KY Derby - his record stood at 11 wins from 12 starts. 9 of those 11 wins coming in Stakes race. He won the Wood Memorial from the 15 post-position in his final Derby prep. He was voted the 2-year-old champion the year prior.

Though he failed to win the Preakness and Belmont and was not a great older horse - he did have a win over the great Forego on his resume and was a multiple Grade 1 winning 4-year-old.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Here are the Ragozin's for the Derby winner from '73 to '80:

1973 SECRETARIAT 0.75
1974 CANNONADE 8
1975 FOOLISH PLEASURE 6.25
1976 BOLD FORBES 6
1977 SEATTLE SLEW 7
1978 AFFIRMED 4
1979 SPECTACULAR BID 1.75
1980 GENUINE RISK 6.25

Sham and General Assembly both obviously ran huge races in defeat.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Pretty interesting quote I just stumbled upon from Bobby Frankel during the middle of Affirmed's 4yo season...








Affirmed never lost again after that quote ... winning his next five races - including four Grade 1's - the Californian and Hollywood Gold Cup in the West. And the Woodward and Jockey Club Gold Cup in the East.

Probably most interesting about that article though - was the horrid Jew 'Fro mop Frankel had on his head.

[asudevil]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Pretty interesting quote I just stumbled upon from Bobby Frankel during the middle of Affirmed's 4yo season...








Affirmed never lost again after that quote ... winning his next five races - including four Grade 1's - the Californian and Hollywood Gold Cup in the West. And the Woodward and Jockey Club Gold Cup in the East.

Probably most interesting about that article though - was the horrid Jew 'Fro mop Frankel had on his head.

http://www.golivewire.com/forums/img.cgi?i=66876

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by asudevil

http://www.golivewire.com/forums/img.cgi?i=66876

Not that bad for crying out loud!



VS

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Here was Shoemaker's take on the five best horses he ever rode....

He had to leave off a lot of greats because he rode so many - but naming Gallant Man over Damascus is sheer lunacy.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Foolish Pleasure might be best remembered for being the other horse in the match race against Ruffian where Ruffian broke down - but damn - he was a pretty friggen nice race horse.

After Foolish Pleasure won the KY Derby - his record stood at 11 wins from 12 starts. 9 of those 11 wins coming in Stakes race. He won the Wood Memorial from the 15 post-position in his final Derby prep. He was voted the 2-year-old champion the year prior.

Though he failed to win the Preakness and Belmont and was not a great older horse - he did have a win over the great Forego on his resume and was a multiple Grade 1 winning 4-year-old.

Foolish Pleasure was a super talented horse through the TC races ( he was second, to Master Derby and Avatar respectively ) in both the Preakness and Belmont. He never returned to that form, even losing to Stonewalk at 1:9 at Aqueduct late in the year, when he returned in the Governor later that year on Labor Day. It's pretty amazing, considering his early accomplishments, that any horse ( in this case the tremendous Wajima ) was able to wrestle 3YO of the Year from him.

His win over Forego, and Lord Rebeau, in the 1976 Suburban is worth looking up on Youtube. It was a great three horse battle, but Foolish Pleasure greatly benefited from being the lone speed, and Forego was forced to join the battle on the backstretch. There is a great photo of that finish on the wall outside our studio on the main floor of the Aqueduct Clubhouse.

Foolish Pleasure's Rodney Dangerfield act is further confirmed by the call from his Derby win, when Chic Anderson mistakenly called Prince Thou Art ( the Darby Dan runner that, as of then, was the only horse to defeat him ) the winner until deep stretch.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Here was Shoemaker's take on the five best horses he ever rode....

He had to leave off a lot of greats because he rode so many - but naming Gallant Man over Damascus is sheer lunacy.

Feelings of guilt might have kept the memory of Gallant Man at the forefront of Shoemaker's mind. That's the colt that Shoemaker cost a Kentucky Derby victory for when he misjudged the finish line. I like how he called him a great 12f horse. Guess he wasn't ready to admit he was a good 10f horse, too.

Gallant Man was part of a three-way rivalry back in the day along with the speedy Bold Ruler and the stout Round Table. So his race record may be obscured a bit kind of like a modern day horse such as Formal Gold (who had to deal with Skip Away and Gentlemen among others).

Likewise, Damascus may be buried in Shoemaker's mind because of high profile losses in the Kentucky Derby and I think also the Charles H. Strub as heavy favorite. Plus, Damascus is ultimately often overshadowed by rival Dr. Fager.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Plus, Damascus is ultimately often overshadowed by rival Dr. Fager.

Yeah - he needed the rabbit to beat Dr. Fager - and all of his truly insanely huge wins came with obvious dreamy pace setups - but Damascus's 3-year-old season - I rated the 4th best in American history since 1900.

Gallant Man was certainly a great horse who faced great competition - but I thought clearly 3rd best of Round Table and Bold Ruler overall from all the info I had to work with.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Foolish Pleasure was a super talented horse through the TC races ( he was second, to Master Derby and Avatar respectively ) in both the Preakness and Belmont. He never returned to that form, even losing to Stonewalk at 1:9 at Aqueduct late in the year, when he returned in the Governor later that year on Labor Day. It's pretty amazing, considering his early accomplishments, that any horse ( in this case the tremendous Wajima ) was able to wrestle 3YO of the Year from him.

His win over Forego, and Lord Rebeau, in the 1976 Suburban is worth looking up on Youtube. It was a great three horse battle, but Foolish Pleasure greatly benefited from being the lone speed, and Forego was forced to join the battle on the backstretch. There is a great photo of that finish on the wall outside our studio on the main floor of the Aqueduct Clubhouse.

Foolish Pleasure's Rodney Dangerfield act is further confirmed by the call from his Derby win, when Chic Anderson mistakenly called Prince Thou Art ( the Darby Dan runner that, as of then, was the only horse to defeat him ) the winner until deep stretch.

I just watched that race.

Foolish Pleasure and Honest Pleasure look like precocious machines to me coming out of the Derby ... it just didn't get better there-after.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Gallant Man was certainly a great horse who faced great competition - but I thought clearly 3rd best of Round Table and Bold Ruler overall from all the info I had to work with.

Strictly on 3yo form, wasn't Gallant Man superior to Round Table?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Foolish Pleasure was a super talented horse through the TC races ( he was second, to Master Derby and Avatar respectively ) in both the Preakness and Belmont. He never returned to that form, even losing to Stonewalk at 1:9 at Aqueduct late in the year, when he returned in the Governor later that year on Labor Day. It's pretty amazing, considering his early accomplishments, that any horse ( in this case the tremendous Wajima ) was able to wrestle 3YO of the Year from him.

His win over Forego, and Lord Rebeau, in the 1976 Suburban is worth looking up on Youtube. It was a great three horse battle, but Foolish Pleasure greatly benefited from being the lone speed, and Forego was forced to join the battle on the backstretch. There is a great photo of that finish on the wall outside our studio on the main floor of the Aqueduct Clubhouse.

Foolish Pleasure's Rodney Dangerfield act is further confirmed by the call from his Derby win, when Chic Anderson mistakenly called Prince Thou Art ( the Darby Dan runner that, as of then, was the only horse to defeat him ) the winner until deep stretch.

I'd never heard of Prince Thou Art (or at least I don't remember him). He has a pretty interesting pedigree, especially through his first two dams. Do you remember his siblings very well?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I'd never heard of Prince Thou Art (or at least I don't remember him). He has a pretty interesting pedigree, especially through his first two dams. Do you remember his siblings very well?

Maud Miller is on the fringes of my racing life but I certainly remember Cum Laude Laurie. She was very good.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Gallant Man was certainly a great horse who faced great competition - but I thought clearly 3rd best of Round Table and Bold Ruler overall from all the info I had to work with.

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Gallant Man was part of a three-way rivalry back in the day along with the speedy Bold Ruler and the stout Round Table. So his race record may be obscured a bit kind of like a modern day horse such as Formal Gold (who had to deal with Skip Away and Gentlemen among others).

The Class of '57 is one of my favorite topics in racing, and Round Table at/near the top of my all time best list. But beyond him, Bold Ruler, Gallant Man, Iron Leige and Barbizon, Calumet's tragic Gen. Duke was probably the best of that immortal crop.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Kasept

The Class of '57 is one of my favorite topics in racing, and Round Table at/near the top of my all time best list. But beyond him, Bold Ruler, Gallant Man, Iron Leige and Barbizon, Calumet's tragic Gen. Duke was probably the best of that immortal crop.

I know the least about that horse out of anyone you just named and am curious as to why you think he was probably the best of that crop. He won only 5 of 12.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I know the least about that horse out of anyone you just named and am curious as to why you think he was probably the best of that crop. He won only 5 of 12.

Wasn't he the actual Derby favorite before being injured? (or am I confusing another group of Calumet horses?)

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Wasn't he the actual Derby favorite before being injured? (or am I confusing another group of Calumet horses?)

You are correct

[Revidere]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

His win over Forego, and Lord Rebeau, in the 1976 Suburban is worth looking up on Youtube. It was a great three horse battle, but Foolish Pleasure greatly benefited from being the lone speed, and Forego was forced to join the battle on the backstretch. There is a great photo of that finish on the wall outside our studio on the main floor of the Aqueduct Clubhouse.

Thats one of my favorite races. I've been asking Adam for 15 years to print that for me. I guess it's tough finding the negatives from that far back.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I know the least about that horse out of anyone you just named and am curious as to why you think he was probably the best of that crop. He won only 5 of 12.

On the farm leading up to his 2yo year, he was widely regarded by the Calumet handlers as the best colt they ever bred... better than Citation. During the winter leading up towards Derby, he alternated decisions with eventual Horse of the Year Bold Ruler in the Florida 3yo series with the Wheatley Nasrullah colt taking the Bahamas (7f) by 4 and Flamingo (9f) by a neck and Gen. Duke (Bull Lea-Wistful by Sun Again) copping the Everglades (9f) by a head and Florida Derby by 1.5.

Gen. Duke established the Florida Derby and Gulfstream 9f records in the Derby win, (and equaled the world record), 1:46.2. No one has gotten closer than 1:47.0 since. And that was Alydar. Gen. Duke got beat subsequently in the Blue Grass (Iron Leige) and Derby Trial (Federall Hill), and there's no telling how good he was going to be the rest of the year. But he was going into the Derby as favorite when he was scratched Friday night. He never raced again. He developed the wobbles and died in 1958.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Here is the chart of the '57 Derby ... while it featured a great collection of horses - while fairly solid - it was not one of the all-time strongest Derby's in terms of how it was run.