Derby Trail Forums

Go Back   Derby Trail Forums > Main Forum > The Paddock
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 02-15-2011, 05:53 AM
cakes44's Avatar
cakes44 cakes44 is offline
The Curragh
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,745
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie View Post
AP Indy is still kicking.

I can think of many horses that were better than Cigar, though obviously less accomplished.
So are you saying you think AP Indy was better than Cigar? I can see trying to find a better horse than Cigar, but AP Indy would be quite a reach IMO.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 02-15-2011, 07:12 AM
OldDog's Avatar
OldDog OldDog is offline
Santa Anita
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: rancho por el mar
Posts: 3,163
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahoss View Post
Holy Bull
Holy Bull and Silver Charm would be in my Top 3. But I would put Cigar at #1.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 02-15-2011, 07:25 AM
Antitrust32 Antitrust32 is offline
Jerome Park
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Ft Lauderdale
Posts: 9,413
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaTruth View Post
It all depends on how you define greatest. Do you just look at a horse's record, such as how many Grade 1 races they won in a row? Do you extend the examination to include how many new fans are created by a particular horse?
are you trying to suggest that Smarty Jones and / or Funny Cide are the best living race horses?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot View Post
Can I start just making stuff up out of thin air, too?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 02-15-2011, 07:56 AM
Indian Charlie's Avatar
Indian Charlie Indian Charlie is offline
Goodwood
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Southern Maine
Posts: 8,708
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cakes44 View Post
So are you saying you think AP Indy was better than Cigar? I can see trying to find a better horse than Cigar, but AP Indy would be quite a reach IMO.
Yes.

Keep in mind AP only raced until the end of his 3yo season.

Certainly you'd agree Indy was tons better as a 3yo than Cigar.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 02-15-2011, 08:00 AM
Indian Charlie's Avatar
Indian Charlie Indian Charlie is offline
Goodwood
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Southern Maine
Posts: 8,708
Default

I'd also put Skip Away and Gentlemen (on the days he showed up) on the list of horses that would have beat Cigar.

Candy Ride would have pummeled Cigar.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 02-15-2011, 08:19 AM
cakes44's Avatar
cakes44 cakes44 is offline
The Curragh
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,745
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie View Post
Yes.

Keep in mind AP only raced until the end of his 3yo season.

Certainly you'd agree Indy was tons better as a 3yo than Cigar.
Yes, but wouldn't you agree that Holy Bull's 3yo season was better than AP Indy's?
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 02-15-2011, 08:26 AM
DaTruth's Avatar
DaTruth DaTruth is offline
Churchill Downs
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,969
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antitrust32 View Post
are you trying to suggest that Smarty Jones and / or Funny Cide are the best living race horses?
No. They never pranced in the paddock before a race, were the subject of love letters from Jay Hovdey, or inspired their fans to show up at the track wearing outfits in the owners' colors.
__________________
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner? You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really don't want me to go down there!
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 02-15-2011, 08:49 AM
miraja2's Avatar
miraja2 miraja2 is offline
Arlington Park
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,157
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie View Post
I'd also put Skip Away and Gentlemen (on the days he showed up) on the list of horses that would have beat Cigar.
Unfortunately he's no longer eligible for consideration in this category.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 02-15-2011, 09:45 AM
Thunder Gulch's Avatar
Thunder Gulch Thunder Gulch is offline
Churchill Downs
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Southland Greyhound Park
Posts: 1,846
Default

Cigar
__________________
Do I think Charity can win? Well, I am walking around in yesterday's suit.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 02-15-2011, 09:48 AM
Indian Charlie's Avatar
Indian Charlie Indian Charlie is offline
Goodwood
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Southern Maine
Posts: 8,708
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cakes44 View Post
Yes, but wouldn't you agree that Holy Bull's 3yo season was better than AP Indy's?
One can make a strong case for either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miraja2 View Post
Unfortunately he's no longer eligible for consideration in this category.
I forgot that he died last year.

It's all moot anyways. Indian Charlie is still alive.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 02-15-2011, 11:20 AM
miraja2's Avatar
miraja2 miraja2 is offline
Arlington Park
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,157
Default

If you include Cigar (in his prime) into the fields of any of Ghostzapper's last six races....how many of them would Cigar would have won?

It is obviously impossible to know, but my guess is zero. Ghostzapper probably still would have won them all.

That's certainly not the only factor one should use in determining "greatness," but I do think its pretty important.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 02-15-2011, 11:21 AM
miraja2's Avatar
miraja2 miraja2 is offline
Arlington Park
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,157
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead View Post
zenyatta duh...
She will undoubtedly hold the title forever because I can only assume that she is immune to death.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 02-15-2011, 11:26 AM
Princess Doreen's Avatar
Princess Doreen Princess Doreen is offline
Randwyck
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: VA and Saratoga
Posts: 1,352
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by miraja2 View Post
If you include Cigar (in his prime) into the fields of any of Ghostzapper's last six races....how many of them would Cigar would have won?

It is obviously impossible to know, but my guess is zero. Ghostzapper probably still would have won them all.

That's certainly not the only factor one should use in determining "greatness," but I do think its pretty important.
Shoulda, coulda, woulda. If GZ had the same kind of schedule that CIGAR had, how many races would he have won or would have missed because he couldn't have kept up?!~
__________________
I l Cigar, Medaglia d'Oro, Big Brown, Curlin, Rachel Alexandra, Silver Charm, First Samurai, Sumwonlovesyou, Lloydobler, Ausable Chasm, AND Prince Will I Am

"Be daring, be different, be impractical, be anything that will assert integrity of purpose and imaginative vision against the play-it-safers, the creatures of the commonplace, the slaves of the ordinary.” Cecil Beaton
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 02-15-2011, 11:54 AM
ateamstupid's Avatar
ateamstupid ateamstupid is offline
Super Mod.. and Super Fly
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 13,036
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Doreen View Post
Shoulda, coulda, woulda. If GZ had the same kind of schedule that CIGAR had, how many races would he have won or would have missed because he couldn't have kept up?!~


So it's OK for you to speculate, but not others.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 02-15-2011, 12:14 PM
Princess Doreen's Avatar
Princess Doreen Princess Doreen is offline
Randwyck
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: VA and Saratoga
Posts: 1,352
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid View Post


So it's OK for you to speculate, but not others.
No - just showing there's another side to shoulda would coulda. Gotta go with what's been done - not what anyone thinks MIGHT have been done.
__________________
I l Cigar, Medaglia d'Oro, Big Brown, Curlin, Rachel Alexandra, Silver Charm, First Samurai, Sumwonlovesyou, Lloydobler, Ausable Chasm, AND Prince Will I Am

"Be daring, be different, be impractical, be anything that will assert integrity of purpose and imaginative vision against the play-it-safers, the creatures of the commonplace, the slaves of the ordinary.” Cecil Beaton
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 02-15-2011, 12:18 PM
NTamm1215 NTamm1215 is offline
Havre de Grace
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,629
Default

One of the things that's admirable about Cigar is that he held up to the rigors of a strong campaign. Horses like Candy Ride and Ghostzapper, who were brilliant when healthy, have to be judged somewhat differently.

I don't think a then 6YO Cigar losing to Skip Away and losing the BCC while racing against a strong inside bias at Woodbine should tarnish what he accomplished in two years.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 02-15-2011, 12:25 PM
RolloTomasi's Avatar
RolloTomasi RolloTomasi is offline
Oriental Park
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,612
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by miraja2 View Post
If you include Cigar (in his prime) into the fields of any of Ghostzapper's last six races....how many of them would Cigar would have won?

It is obviously impossible to know, but my guess is zero. Ghostzapper probably still would have won them all.

That's certainly not the only factor one should use in determining "greatness," but I do think its pretty important.
The flip side to that is putting Ghostzapper in Cigar's races.

If he had to contend with horses like Louis Quatorze, Siphon, Urgent Request, Honour and Glory, etc. on the front end, he probably would have been kept sprinting.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 02-15-2011, 12:42 PM
ateamstupid's Avatar
ateamstupid ateamstupid is offline
Super Mod.. and Super Fly
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 13,036
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi View Post
The flip side to that is putting Ghostzapper in Cigar's races.

If he had to contend with horses like Louis Quatorze, Siphon, Urgent Request, Honour and Glory, etc. on the front end, he probably would have been kept sprinting.
Ghostzapper didn't need to be on the front. He was just so much better than his competition, Castellano would often let him roll and he'd still have plenty left in the stretch.

As has been said before, 'greatness' is loosely defined. Some think it's longevity, some think it's brilliance, some think it's a combination of the two. Ghostzapper was as brilliant as any horse in the last 30 years, so I don't think it's unreasonable to consider him the best living racehorse without getting into a dozen pages of hypothetical matchups.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 02-15-2011, 01:23 PM
RolloTomasi's Avatar
RolloTomasi RolloTomasi is offline
Oriental Park
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,612
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid View Post
Ghostzapper didn't need to be on the front. He was just so much better than his competition, Castellano would often let him roll and he'd still have plenty left in the stretch.
Didn't Bobby Frankel go to great lengths to convince Ken Ramsey to keep Roses In May from dueling with Ghostzapper in the BC Classic? At least that's what Steve Haskin said. Seems like Frankel was aware that the colt had his limits.

Looking (crudely I'll admit) at Cigar's races, he routinely ran in 9-10f races with :45+ and :46+ half-mile fractions. Ghostzapper, who made all of 2 starts around two turns, barely edged the good, but hardly great, St. Liam when encountering those sorts of fractions.

I would think he'd be vulnerable in at least some of those races Cigar ran in.

Quote:
As has been said before, 'greatness' is loosely defined. Some think it's longevity, some think it's brilliance, some think it's a combination of the two. Ghostzapper was as brilliant as any horse in the last 30 years, so I don't think it's unreasonable to consider him the best living racehorse without getting into a dozen pages of hypothetical matchups.
Well, isn't that sort of the intent of this thread?

If you're opposed to getting involved in "hypothetical matchup" debates, maybe refrain from piggy-backing off miraja's posts.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 02-15-2011, 01:35 PM
ateamstupid's Avatar
ateamstupid ateamstupid is offline
Super Mod.. and Super Fly
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 13,036
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi
Didn't Bobby Frankel go to great lengths to convince Ken Ramsey to keep Roses In May from dueling with Ghostzapper in the BC Classic? At least that's what Steve Haskin said. Seems like Frankel was aware that the colt had his limits.
If that's true, and I'd hardly take what Haskin says as gospel these days, it likely had less to do with tactical limitations and more with the fact that Castellano's hand was forced when he drew the rail. Ghostzapper still had to set pretty quick fractions and was never challenged. If I remember the quote, it was more along the lines of 'a speed duel isn't good for either horse', but really, it would've been a lot worse for Roses in May. Assuming that Haskin's story is accurate and that Ramsey heeded Frankel's advice, it was the right move. Roses in May never could have run the race that Ghostzapper did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RolloTomasi
Well, isn't that sort of the intent of this thread?

If you're opposed to getting involved in "hypothetical matchup" debates, maybe refrain from piggy-backing off miraja's posts.
Got it, so I can't defend an opinion about a horse's ability without an accompanying desire to get into hours of debate over pretend races.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.