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#21
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![]() So are you saying you think AP Indy was better than Cigar? I can see trying to find a better horse than Cigar, but AP Indy would be quite a reach IMO.
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#22
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![]() Holy Bull and Silver Charm would be in my Top 3. But I would put Cigar at #1.
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#23
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![]() are you trying to suggest that Smarty Jones and / or Funny Cide are the best living race horses?
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#24
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![]() Quote:
Keep in mind AP only raced until the end of his 3yo season. Certainly you'd agree Indy was tons better as a 3yo than Cigar. |
#25
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![]() I'd also put Skip Away and Gentlemen (on the days he showed up) on the list of horses that would have beat Cigar.
Candy Ride would have pummeled Cigar. |
#26
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![]() Yes, but wouldn't you agree that Holy Bull's 3yo season was better than AP Indy's?
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#27
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![]() No. They never pranced in the paddock before a race, were the subject of love letters from Jay Hovdey, or inspired their fans to show up at the track wearing outfits in the owners' colors.
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Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner? You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really don't want me to go down there! |
#28
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![]() Unfortunately he's no longer eligible for consideration in this category.
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#29
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![]() Cigar
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Do I think Charity can win? Well, I am walking around in yesterday's suit. |
#30
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![]() Quote:
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It's all moot anyways. Indian Charlie is still alive. |
#31
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![]() If you include Cigar (in his prime) into the fields of any of Ghostzapper's last six races....how many of them would Cigar would have won?
It is obviously impossible to know, but my guess is zero. Ghostzapper probably still would have won them all. That's certainly not the only factor one should use in determining "greatness," but I do think its pretty important. |
#32
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![]() She will undoubtedly hold the title forever because I can only assume that she is immune to death.
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#33
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![]() Quote:
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I l ![]() "Be daring, be different, be impractical, be anything that will assert integrity of purpose and imaginative vision against the play-it-safers, the creatures of the commonplace, the slaves of the ordinary.” Cecil Beaton |
#34
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![]() So it's OK for you to speculate, but not others. |
#35
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![]() No - just showing there's another side to shoulda would coulda. Gotta go with what's been done - not what anyone thinks MIGHT have been done.
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I l ![]() "Be daring, be different, be impractical, be anything that will assert integrity of purpose and imaginative vision against the play-it-safers, the creatures of the commonplace, the slaves of the ordinary.” Cecil Beaton |
#36
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![]() One of the things that's admirable about Cigar is that he held up to the rigors of a strong campaign. Horses like Candy Ride and Ghostzapper, who were brilliant when healthy, have to be judged somewhat differently.
I don't think a then 6YO Cigar losing to Skip Away and losing the BCC while racing against a strong inside bias at Woodbine should tarnish what he accomplished in two years. |
#37
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If he had to contend with horses like Louis Quatorze, Siphon, Urgent Request, Honour and Glory, etc. on the front end, he probably would have been kept sprinting. |
#38
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![]() Quote:
As has been said before, 'greatness' is loosely defined. Some think it's longevity, some think it's brilliance, some think it's a combination of the two. Ghostzapper was as brilliant as any horse in the last 30 years, so I don't think it's unreasonable to consider him the best living racehorse without getting into a dozen pages of hypothetical matchups. |
#39
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![]() Quote:
Looking (crudely I'll admit) at Cigar's races, he routinely ran in 9-10f races with :45+ and :46+ half-mile fractions. Ghostzapper, who made all of 2 starts around two turns, barely edged the good, but hardly great, St. Liam when encountering those sorts of fractions. I would think he'd be vulnerable in at least some of those races Cigar ran in. Quote:
If you're opposed to getting involved in "hypothetical matchup" debates, maybe refrain from piggy-backing off miraja's posts. |
#40
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![]() Quote:
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