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#21
10-23-2009, 02:03 PM
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#22
10-23-2009, 02:06 PM
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Guerrero and Helton have better numbers than quite a few current hall of famers.
Guererro should be a cinch. He was one of the top 5 all around players for the majority of his career, mostly playing in parks that dont favor hitters. He had the best arm in baseball outside of Ichiro before he got hurt though he was never a great outfielder. Like Guerrero, Helton has numbers and has been injury plagued but played in Coors which means he should be held to a higher standard. Ichiro is a lock as is Chipper Jones. Hoffman is deserving and likely. IMO Smoltz should be in easy. Damon is a no as is Pettite (not because they are Yankees either) Abreu probably wont do enough Thome and Sheffield are the toughest for me. Sheffield played 21 seasons and ran up some nice career numbers but is still 300 hits shy of 3000. Out of 21 years he had 8 really good seasons, so he actually had more subpar seasons than really good ones. And this is during the juice era where numbers are generally inflated 20% or so. He was a terrible fielder at a bunch of positions and has been linked to steroids which makes his top seasons at later ages suspicious. I'd say no to him. Thome is similar in that he has played a long time and was limited in most areas except for power hitting. Despite being known for HR's he only led the league 1 time. He made 5 all star teams which is less than most HoF'ers. He was in the top 5 MVP voting 1 time. He never won any awards. He did lead the league in k's 3 times. He only has 2100 hits despite the length of his career. He is ranked 23rd all time in slugging % and is 48th in OBP though both are positively effected by the era he played in. He is 10th lifetime in walks but that is countered by being 2nd all time in strikeouts. His numbers are very similar to harmon Killebrew but he played during the modern deadball era. I would be surprised if he gets in but I dont know if I would vote for him.
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#23
10-23-2009, 02:09 PM
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Ichiro and Guerrero are the only two I'd vote in.
One reason why it's hard to judge by number of times they won an MVP or finished high in the voting is 1999. Jones 45-110 .319 avg, .441 obp, .633 slg, 359 total bases, 41 doubles, 116 runs, 181 hits Guerrero 42-131 .316 avg, .378 obp, .600 slg, 366 total bases, 37 doubles, 102 runs, 193 hits Jones won the MVP. Guerrero finished 11th.
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The real horses of the year (1986-2020) Manila, Java Gold, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Go for Wand, In Excess, Paseana, Kotashaan, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alphabet Soup, Formal Gold, Skip Away, Artax, Tiznow, Point Given, Azeri, Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Ghostzapper, Invasor, Curlin, Zenyatta, Zenyatta, Goldikova, Havre de Grace, Wise Dan, Wise Dan, California Chrome, American Pharoah, Arrogate, Gun Runner, Accelerate, Maximum Security, Gamine Last edited by King Glorious : 10-23-2009 at 02:26 PM.
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#24
10-23-2009, 02:09 PM
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#25
10-23-2009, 02:10 PM
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Tim, I think he compiles numbers, I've never felt he was a top 5 player in the league over a period of time....I think the HOF should be special.
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#26
10-23-2009, 02:23 PM
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Besides he Coors field thing, I just feel like Helton has flown below the radar for much of his career. It seemed like he never got the recognition he deserved and when it comes time for the Hall I think all that lack of press/spotlight might end up hurting him. For Vlad, although he has had some great season. I just don't think he ever reached that level that everyone thought he was destined for. I know thats unfair, but unfortunately it might come into play come voting time. Sheff is a guy that's on the fence and from what I remember he wasn't the most popular guy with the media either. That and the allegations might hurt him, but I do think he will eventually end up in. You make valid points about Thome. He did also play in hitter's parks, but I really think his HR's will carry him in.
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Felix Unger talking to Oscar Madison: "Your horse could finish third by 20 lengths and they still pay you? And you have been losing money for all these years?!"
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#28
10-23-2009, 02:31 PM
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Jones 32-108, .307 avg, .406 obp, 11 sb, 109 runs Sheff 32-105, .292 avg, .393 obp, 16 sb, 103 runs Thome 40-111, .277 avg, .404 obp, 1 sb, 105 runs Here's where I come out on it. When I have to debate their numbers or compare their cases against other players, that's a no for me. To me, a hall of famer is one that I say yes to without having to look at the numbers to make their case or say "well, since so and so's in, he should be in too." Guerrero was one of the most feared hitters in the game for a number of years and we remember that without looking up any numbers. Ichiro is one of the best hitters in the history of the game. No need to look up any numbers to remind you of that.
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The real horses of the year (1986-2020) Manila, Java Gold, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Go for Wand, In Excess, Paseana, Kotashaan, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alphabet Soup, Formal Gold, Skip Away, Artax, Tiznow, Point Given, Azeri, Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Ghostzapper, Invasor, Curlin, Zenyatta, Zenyatta, Goldikova, Havre de Grace, Wise Dan, Wise Dan, California Chrome, American Pharoah, Arrogate, Gun Runner, Accelerate, Maximum Security, Gamine
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#29
10-23-2009, 02:34 PM
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Guerrero would need to do something huge in the post to counterweight that 2005 post season he had (horrible.) Totally let his team down. He has slightly more intellect than a cow. I don't think he'll make it.
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#30
10-23-2009, 02:36 PM
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No effort to get a ring? No plate discipline? Over Guerrero's career he averaged 76 K's a year (which is a very small amount for a power hitter) in an average of 685 plate appearances. He also averaged 197 hits over that same time. His lifetime batting average is .321. His .568 slg % is 14th all-time. He has 7 silver slugger awards (other OF with 7 or more, Bonds, Ramirez, Gwynn, and Griffey). He has an MVP award and 4 other top 6 finishes. He is 5th alltime in intentional walks, leading the league 5 times. He has 407 HR's. He has 2250 hits. He has led the league in hits, runs and total bases. All this in 13 seasons. Baseball reference has a breakdown of stats called a similarity score adjusted by year, era, etc. Guerrero's most similar hitters by year? Willie Mays, Manny Ramirez and Duke Snider. Yeah I think the results of three games in 2005 should trump that.
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#31
10-23-2009, 02:37 PM
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I listed the players IMO from most likely to least likely with a line in between HOFers and non-HOFers.
Ichiro Vlad Guerrero John Smoltz Trevor Hoffman ----------------- Todd Helton Jim Thome Chipper Jones Bobby Abreu Gary Sheffield Johnny Damon Miguel Tejada Andy Pettite
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#32
10-23-2009, 02:38 PM
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#33
10-23-2009, 02:40 PM
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__________________
"I don't feel like that I am any better than anybody else" - Paul Newman
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#34
10-23-2009, 02:41 PM
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#35
10-23-2009, 02:42 PM
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#36
10-23-2009, 02:44 PM
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#37
10-23-2009, 02:45 PM
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#38
10-23-2009, 02:49 PM
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#39
10-23-2009, 02:51 PM
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