ruffian and rachel

[pdrift1]

when your in the momment sometimes you don't realize it. and time makes things more clearer when you have time to reflect.

using ruffian as the bar of greatness for fillys and mares as most do

so how many of you think rachel is equal to ruffian in greatness?


coming from one of the great trainers in haskins article-“I think she’s the best I’ve ever seen,” said 96-year-old racing legend John Nerud. “I don’t compare her to anyone. I’m not afraid to say she’s better than Ruffian, because she is.

your thoughts?

[TheSpyder]

As Haskins says, he does not compare on horse from one generation from another...too hard to do.
Having said that...she is the greatest of our time, and maybe of other times.

[randallscott35]

She's better than Ruffian. Ruffian got upgraded partially as a result of her death. Not PC to say but just like artists who die, they are remembered differently.

[richard burch]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

She's better than Ruffian. Ruffian got upgraded partially as a result of her death. Not PC to say but just like artists who die, they are remembered differently.

Not necessarily. Ruffian had 5 grade 1 wins and 3 grade 3 wins in her 11 races and i believe she did it all on the front end. Thats quite an accomplishment.

But R.A is certainly the best filly to come around in a while. Sorry Zenyatta, in this case 2nd best is also pretty damn impressive.

[RockHardTen1985]

When we say the greatest what exactly are we saying? Is she the greatest filly of our time? I think so, my time is the last 24 years..... Im not sure she's even the greatest horse of the last 9 years. Ghostzapper and Point Given were BRILLIANT. Candy Ride was a freak, turf and dirt. Im sure I will take a lot of **** for this. But if Ghostzapper, Point Given, Candy Ride and Rachel faced each other going 1 1/8 on dirt, IMO it is very logical to say she runs last, even if she fires her best shot. Im not knocking her w/ this. If you put her Azeri, Rags in a race... I think Rachel would crush them.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

When we say the greatest what exactly are we saying? Is she the greatest filly of our time? I think so, my time is the last 24 years..... Im not sure she's even the greatest horse of the last 9 years. Ghostzapper and Point Given were BRILLIANT. Candy Ride was a freak, turf and dirt. Im sure I will take a lot of **** for this. But if Ghostzapper, Point Given, Candy Ride and Rachel faced each other going 1 1/8 on dirt, IMO it is very logical to say she runs last, even if she fires her best shot.

Apparently you didn't read the title or the thread. We are looking at fillies and within that Ruffian and Rachel....Nothing else....Another reason why you got my vote for worst poster.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Apparently you didn't read the title or the thread. We are looking at fillies and within that Ruffian and Rachel....Nothing else....Another reason why you got my vote for worst poster.

I read it, but almost every thread is about how great she is. So why does it matter where I post my opinion? Should I create a new thread for it?

[richard burch]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Apparently you didn't read the title or the thread. We are looking at fillies and within that Ruffian and Rachel....Nothing else....Another reason why you got my vote for worst poster.

ouch!

[dean smith]

Is there a website or book you can go to that supplies historical lifetime PPs? For instance, if I wanted to compare, say, Go For Wand and Ruffian's lifetime past performance records, where could I find them?

It would make these comparison threads a lot easier discuss (at least on my end).

P.S. I know GFW has nothing to do with this thread, but Rachel Alexandra is still active and it's fairly easy to get ahold of her PPs. I thought she would make a poor example.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by dean smith

Is there a website or book you can go to that supplies historical lifetime PPs? For instance, if I wanted to compare, say, Go For Wand and Ruffian's lifetime past performance records, where could I find them?

It would make these comparison threads a lot easier discuss (at least on my end).

P.S. I know GFW has nothing to do with this thread, but Rachel Alexandra is still active and it's fairly easy to get ahold of her PPs. I thought she would make a poor example.

http://store.drf.com/acb/stores/1/CH...026.cfm?AFID=6

[richard burch]

Originally Posted by dean smith

Is there a website or book you can go to that supplies historical lifetime PPs? For instance, if I wanted to compare, say, Go For Wand and Ruffian's lifetime past performance records, where could I find them?

It would make these comparison threads a lot easier discuss (at least on my end).

P.S. I know GFW has nothing to do with this thread, but Rachel Alexandra is still active and it's fairly easy to get ahold of her PPs. I thought she would make a poor example.

a great book to get is called Champions by the DRF. it does have the PP's and it lists all the great horses from1893-2004....and is updated every few years. currently at about 450 pages

here it is


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/193...0R3KPJGA6D69CB

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by richard burch

a great book to get is called Champions by the DRF. it doesn't have the PP's but it lists all the great horses from1893-2004....and is updated every few years. currently at about 450 pages

the one I bought 2-3 years ago has the pp's.

[Phalaris1913]

a great book to get is called Champions by the DRF. it doesn't have the PP's ...

Champions has lifetime PPs of around 500 horses: all the Eclipse Award winners, through the time of release; all of the champions elected through the old DRF poll (1936-1970); an assortment of horses that pre-date the DRF poll, and a handful of additional horses.

[Round Pen]

For me this Sums it all up

Lucien Laurin, Secretariat's trainer, said this quote to the press "As God as my witness, she (Ruffian) may even be better than Secretariat."

[dean smith]

So, I've got to buy a $50 book to look at the lifetime statistics of a small fraction of the all-time greats of the sport? Are you kidding me?

I can get Hank Aaron's, Bobby Hull's, Jim Brown's and Tiny Archibald's career stats with a few strokes on the keyboard.

Website idea!

[DaTruth]

Originally Posted by dean smith

So, I've got to buy a $50 book to look at the lifetime statistics of a small fraction of the all-time greats of the sport? Are you kidding me?

I can get Hank Aaron's, Bobby Hull's, Jim Brown's and Tiny Archibald's career stats with a few strokes on the keyboard.

Website idea!

The PPs of every horse who has started in this country since DRF has kept statistics should be readily available at a reasonable cost. Some magazines sell portable hard drives that contain all their past issues. DRF should sell portable hard drives that have the scanned pages of every edition of the Form issued in a given year.

For a sport that cares so much about its history, there are few attempts to make this history available to fans or interested parties. How sad that if I want to see the video of a historical race, I have to hope someone has posted it on YouTube.

[Phalaris1913]

So, I've got to buy a $50 book to look at the lifetime statistics of a small fraction of the all-time greats of the sport? Are you kidding me?

I can get Hank Aaron's, Bobby Hull's, Jim Brown's and Tiny Archibald's career stats with a few strokes on the keyboard.

Website idea!

1. If all you want are basic racing records, it appears you can get that for free at BRIS these days. It'll show year-by-year stats back to the 1920s and stakes info for a bit further back.
2. Reconstructing actual past performances - considering that even the major data purveyors of the sport do not seem to have the material required to do that in electronic form prior to the 1970s - is a major undertaking and involves copyright issues.

[DaTruth]

This is a tough call. All but one of Ruffian's starts were at the NYRA tracks. The RA roadshow has now hit eight tracks in six states. Ruffian only raced four times at a mile or more, but won at 12 furlongs. RA has made 10 starts at a mile or more, winning 9 of those races.

RA has defeated males three times. But Ruffian was undefeated against her own sex. Ruffian was a precocious speed freak who may have been defeated as the rest of her generation caught up to her. RA is more of a classic horse who has gotten better with time and longer distances.

I'd give the nod to RA in a close finish.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Ruffian was obviously much better as a 2-year-old and much better as a sprinter.

Stuff like this didn't happen to her...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9jD4...eature=channel


Rachel Alexandra is - at the least - far more accomplished as both a 3-year-old and a router.


Without a doubt, Jess Jackson's willingness to run against males has done a lot to enhance her reputation. Some other very good 3yo fillies never got a shot.

The only 3-year-old filly I can think of that ever ran in the Breeders Cup Classic was Jolypha.

She finished 3rd beaten just 2.5 lengths with a 110 Beyer ... and she was shipping from a poor performance in the Arc and was making her first lifetime start on dirt.

* The winner of that race was Horse of the Year A. P. Indy.

* Pleasant Tap was 2nd. He's a mulitple Grade 1 winner of over $2 million who is the only horse in history to finish in the top 3 in the Ky Derby, BC Sprint, and BC Classic.

* Reign Road was 4th. He came into the race off of back to back Grade 2 wins in the Goodwood and Del Mar BC.

* Sultry Song was 5th. He won that years Hollywood Gold Cup, Whitney, and Woodward

* Defensive Play was 6th. He's a Grade 1 winner who was 2nd in the Pacific Classic in his prior dirt start.

* Thunder Rumble was 7th. He won that years Travers and Jim Dandy

* Strike The Gold was 8th. He's a Kentucky Derby winnner with almost $3.5 million in earnings

* Twilight Agenda was 9th. He's a Grade 1 winner who made over $2 million.

* Jolie's Halo was 10th. He's a 3 time Grade 1 winning millionaire

* Marquetry was 11th. He's a 3 time Grade 1 winner who made almost $3 million

* Zoman was 12th. Multiple Grade 1 wining millionaire

* Technology was 13th. Multiple Grade 1 winner .. won the Fla Derby and Haskell.

* Rodrigo De Triano was 14th. He was a champion 3yo in Europe that year and won 5 Group 1's from 6f to 10.5f.


Of course, look what Melair did when they ran her against males as a 3yo. She set mind-boggling fractions, flirted with a world record, and destroyed a very good champion in Snow Chief. Her entire career lasted just 10 weeks though.

[Pedigree Ann]

TVG just showed a replay of Ruffian's CCA Oaks, which was at 12f, like the Belmont, in which she equalled the stakes record. Ruffian wasn't really bred for 12f; her two noted half-brothers Icecapade and Buckpasser were milers at best and her sire Reviewer was more of the same. But she held a constant two-length lead for the last quarter mile over Equal Change, a filly who was bred for 12f or more (by Arts and Letters-Fairness, by Cavan, from the family of Assault and Man o' War). And Vasquez never resorted to the whip, hand urging all the way.