War for our dollars

[cmorioles]

As a bettor, which group should I support, the tracks or the horsemen?

[Cannon Shell]

You do understand some of these disputes are track versus track?

[the_fat_man]

well, some of the horsemen offer FREE PPs for races their horses are entered

wtf has any track given me for free?

there's your answer

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You do understand some of these disputes are track versus track?

Yes, but I'm talking about the specific one where the horsemen want an additional cut of the ADW wagered dollars.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

well, some of the horsemen offer FREE PPs for races their horses are entered

wtf has any track given me for free?

there's your answer

I would imagine they only can do with with permission from Equibase, which I though is run by the tracks. I could be wrong though, I've never really bothered to learn the whole Equibase situation.

[the_fat_man]

No doubt they pay EQUIBASE (or Brisnet).

But at least they realize something the tracks don't.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Yes, but I'm talking about the specific one where the horsemen want an additional cut of the ADW wagered dollars.

You may be better off siding with the tracks because if they lose this dispute, they will surely raise takeout and blame the horsemen.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You may be better off siding with the tracks because if they lose this dispute, they will surely raise takeout and blame the horsemen.

You may be right, I don't know. Do horsemen ever fight against takeout increases? I don't think I've seen a horsemen's group ever take that stand. I'm not trying to pick on either side and don't want to start now. One thing I'm certain of is that any takeout increases above today's already ridiculous levels will doom the sport.

Currently, I can get rebates because of the ADW pricing. Now, I understand the tracks are trying to end that by basically cutting out the middle man with companies like Xpress Bet and Twin Spires. Instead, they want to give out toasters and XBox games. So I'm certainly no fan of that. But I also realize that if the pricing changes, I'm out that way as well.

My thinking, and I could be wrong, is that if you price rebates out of the equation, handle is going to shrink big time. A lot of players will leave or bet a lot less.

This is worse than trying to watch a Yankees/Red Sox baseball game as an Oriole fan.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

You may be right, I don't know. Do horsemen ever fight against takeout increases? I don't think I've seen a horsemen's group ever take that stand. I'm not trying to pick on either side and don't want to start now. One thing I'm certain of is that any takeout increases above today's already ridiculous levels will doom the sport.

Currently, I can get rebates because of the ADW pricing. Now, I understand the tracks are trying to end that by basically cutting out the middle man with companies like Xpress Bet and Twin Spires. Instead, they want to give out toasters and XBox games. So I'm certainly no fan of that. But I also realize that if the pricing changes, I'm out that way as well.

My thinking, and I could be wrong, is that if you price rebates out of the equation, handle is going to shrink big time. A lot of players will leave or bet a lot less.

This is worse than trying to watch a Yankees/Red Sox baseball game as an Oriole fan.

I dont know either. For years there was tons of money tied to rebates that was going off shore anyway.

[the_fat_man]

I'm confused here. Does the Hong Kong Jockey Club give out REBATES to the whales putting MILLIONS into their pools?

While I want to see improvements in the game, ideally they would be in terms of service: more exact charts, realtime video and FULL replays, free charts, TRAKUS (or something like it) at all tracks, easy ability to bet, etc.

Put the game at a level playing field for all. I can't stress enough the importance of exact information and FULL replays.

I can see why the tracks might pay out money to keep the WHALES in the game but I certainly don't agree with, or support, it. If you can't beat the game 'fairly' then you really shouldn't be given an edge; whether you put through a million or one dollar each year.

Any way you cut it, either you have the skill to win or you don't.

Nothing personal with anyone (and I suppose this would include the majority here) but if you need a rebate to win, you shouldn't be in the game.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

I'm confused here. Does the Hong Kong Jockey Club give out REBATES to the whales putting MILLIONS into their pools?

While I want to see improvements in the game, ideally they would be in terms of service: more exact charts, realtime video and FULL replays, free charts, TRAKUS (or something like it) at all tracks, easy ability to bet, etc.

Put the game at a level playing field for all. I can't stress enough the importance of exact information and FULL replays.

I can see why the tracks might pay out money to keep the WHALES in the game but I certainly don't agree with, or support, it. If you can't beat the game 'fairly' then you really shouldn't be given an edge; whether you put through a million or one dollar each year.

Any way you cut it, either you have the skill to win or you don't.

Nothing personal with anyone (and I suppose this would include the majority here) but if you need a rebate to win, you shouldn't be in the game.

on the other hand if you have a positive roi, why wouldn't a rebate improve it?

[cmorioles]

At some point, you can have the greatest information in the world and be the best handicapper ever, but if the takeout is too high, you will lose. Try betting Puerto Rican racing and the insane takeout they offer. What do you think would happen to all these pro poker players if they started raking in 20% of the pot for the house?

Personally, I think lower takeouts and more competitive racing could increase betting. I would much rather an overall lower takeout for everyone, no question about it. So, maybe rebate wasn't the right word, but takeout reduction instead. Any bit of the takeout that is given away lessens the chance of that happening. I want the game to grow, period. It will never, ever get better unless betting is increased, and nothing that is happening currently is going to make that happen. Fighting over a stagnant or shrinking pot of money is foolish if at the same time steps aren't being taken to try to increase the pool.

Many of the things that could help are opposed by tracks and/or horsemen because they are short sighted on many issues. What happens when tracks try to cut down days? Horsemen protest of course. They would rather keep carding 5 and 6 horse fields with unappetizing fields. Those really generate big pools. Jockeys need insurance, what should we do? Increase takeout of course. Isn't the smart thing to do to cannibalize the pools even further? I could go on and on, but it has all been said before.

I'm no expert on Hong Kong, but I know they passed a law allowing rebates to try to keep money in the pools rather than with illegal bookmakers. The takeout is also lower, I think about 12%. Not only that, when they lowered takeout to the current level, revenue increased. Not just handle, but REVENUE.

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

I'm confused here. Does the Hong Kong Jockey Club give out REBATES to the whales putting MILLIONS into their pools?

While I want to see improvements in the game, ideally they would be in terms of service: more exact charts, realtime video and FULL replays, free charts, TRAKUS (or something like it) at all tracks, easy ability to bet, etc.

Put the game at a level playing field for all. I can't stress enough the importance of exact information and FULL replays.

I can see why the tracks might pay out money to keep the WHALES in the game but I certainly don't agree with, or support, it. If you can't beat the game 'fairly' then you really shouldn't be given an edge; whether you put through a million or one dollar each year.

Any way you cut it, either you have the skill to win or you don't.

Nothing personal with anyone (and I suppose this would include the majority here) but if you need a rebate to win, you shouldn't be in the game.

What does in the game mean?

[jpops757]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

At some point, you can have the greatest information in the world and be the best handicapper ever, but if the takeout is too high, you will lose. Try betting Puerto Rican racing and the insane takeout they offer. What do you think would happen to all these pro poker players if they started raking in 20% of the pot for the house?

Personally, I think lower takeouts and more competitive racing could increase betting. I would much rather an overall lower takeout for everyone, no question about it. So, maybe rebate wasn't the right word, but takeout reduction instead. Any bit of the takeout that is given away lessens the chance of that happening. I want the game to grow, period. It will never, ever get better unless betting is increased, and nothing that is happening currently is going to make that happen. Fighting over a stagnant or shrinking pot of money is foolish if at the same time steps aren't being taken to try to increase the pool.

Many of the things that could help are opposed by tracks and/or horsemen because they are short sighted on many issues. What happens when tracks try to cut down days? Horsemen protest of course. They would rather keep carding 5 and 6 horse fields with unappetizing fields. Those really generate big pools. Jockeys need insurance, what should we do? Increase takeout of course. Isn't the smart thing to do to cannibalize the pools even further? I could go on and on, but it has all been said before.

I'm no expert on Hong Kong, but I know they passed a law allowing rebates to try to keep money in the pools rather than with illegal bookmakers. The takeout is also lower, I think about 12%. Not only that, when they lowered takeout to the current level, revenue increased. Not just handle, but REVENUE.

I know I have read some stats that Gary West presented that supported the fact that lower take outs will result in more bottom line proffit for the tracks,