Now does anyone still believe?...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

When you have two undefeated horses with as much potential and obvious ability as these two, only a fool would say definitively which would win! Opinions are equally valid...neither lost a race and both obviously had/have tremendous upside! Barbaro demonstrated an ability to carry his class across diverse surfaces (dirt/turf), he also demonstrated the heart of a champion as he was indeed "looked in the eye" in a race that he had every opportunity to lose. I think it's a disservice to both champions to say with any confidence which was/is better. Up to this point, Barbaro showed a little more...turf dominance followed by a Derby win trumps a Preakness win and a public workout yesterday...but that in no way is proof absolute that he was the better horse! My guess (and only a guess)...I'll stick with Barbaro!

bernardini isn't undefeated, he lost his first race, finished fourth that day. evidently a quick learner.

i really don't care for barbaro/bernardini comparisons. it can only yield bitter fruit imo.

barbaro showed tremendous ability on the track, his will to win is matched by his will to live. he is truly a special, spectacular horse. may he be with us for years to come. i have every intention of enjoying bernardinis wins. but he won't ever be the best 3 yo to me out of this crop.
it was a tremendous win for him yesterday, but he still has much to do to match barbaros feats of the first half of this year.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Five Star Derek

I think the beyer is less relevant in this case because he won so easily. If he was pushed we might have a better idea of his true beyer.

where's oracle?

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

bernardini isn't undefeated, he lost his first race, finished fourth that day. evidently a quick learner.

i really don't care for barbaro/bernardini comparisons. it can only yield bitter fruit imo.

barbaro showed tremendous ability on the track, his will to win is matched by his will to live. he is truly a special, spectacular horse. may he be with us for years to come. i have every intention of enjoying bernardinis wins. but he won't ever be the best 3 yo to me out of this crop.
it was a tremendous win for him yesterday, but he still has much to do to match barbaros feats of the first half of this year.

There I completely disagree. Barbaro won the Holy Bull, Florida Derby and KY Derby. Very impressive accomplishments, obviously, but how do Bernardini's accomplishments not stack up? Withers, Preakness, Jim Dandy - ok, Barbaro has one more Grade 1, but to say that Bernardini has to accomplish a LOT more to even come close to Barbaro? IMO, that's overstating Barbaro's case. You just said you didn't like to compare Barbaro and Bernardini yet you admit that nothing Bernardini does can ever make you think he's the better of the two horses. Then the conversation about Bernardini basically ends right here if he has to compete with the memory of a fallen horse.

[Danzig]

there is no way anyone could possibly argue that a preakness win is comparable to a derby win, esp not lately when so many have skipped md to rest for belmont--which bernardinis connections decided to skip as well. the derby is THE race in the spring for 3 yo's. barbaros win was emphatic, over (again) the best field assembled in years. some say since secretariats field, others say since iron lieges, when bold ruler, gallant man and round table ran.
also, his margin of victory was one of the largest ever in the derby, and the largest in 60 years since assaults won en route to his triple crown. barbaro started on grass, and made the switch to dirt, winning his first try on that surface in the slop. some said let's see him on fast ground, he answered that question as well. then there was the five week layoff, first horse to win the derby off that length of time off. the withers doesn't equal the holy bull, certainly doesn't equal the florida derby. imo, barbaro was the better horse--he certainly had accomplished far more in his short career than many horses ever do. a catastrophic injury cut his career short, a career that answered any question someone could have about a horse.
as for bernardini, he hasn't won at 10f yet, he hasn't faced the level of comp that barbaro faced yet. he may accomplish more--he has the time to do so i hope! but IMO barbaro is the better of the two.

like i said, comparisons will lead nowhere. bernardini isn't done yet. maybe he'll win the bcc...maybe my opinion will change down the road. but RIGHT NOW, imo, barbaro is the top horse from this crop.

[Suffolk Shippers]

Originally Posted by Cunningham Racing

...that Barbaro is better on the dirt than Bernardini and would have defeated him in the Preakness?

Barbaro was hands down probably the best turf 3YO in the world this year and maybe the best turf horse in the world period, but I am very comfortable saying that he wanted no part of Bernardini on the dirt.

Preakness (check in a runaway)

Jim Dandy (check in a public workout)

Travers

Jockey Club Gold Cup

BC Classic

Horse of the Year

.....4 more checks to go.....

Joel, I respect your knowledge, but by posting this you are basically just asking people to challenge your opinion. These two horses met one time together on the track and one horse ran about 400 yards and couldn't keep going.

No one, including yourself, knows what Barbaro would have turned into. Would he be a dominant superstar? Sure, thats possible. Could he have been a so called "one hit wonder". Sure, also somewhat plausible, but less likely. All in all, likely somewhere in between.

That being said, no one (again) can say who would have won on that day back in May. Bernardini romped, we all saw it. I think he ran a 113 or 114, what have you. I'll go on record with my opinion, I don't know if Barbaro could have hung with him that day, two weeks off his Derby effort. I think it would have been a spirited drive for the wire.

[Gander]

Amen. I am so sick about hearing the Barbaro comparisons. Why Barbaro? Why not Secretariat? Skip Away? Butterface?

Havent we heard Barbaro's name enough this year? I do wish him all the best in his recovery but enough is enough.

There is no logical way to even guess who would have won the Preakness had Barbaro not broken down. How could anyone, even the experts, know?
Maybe we didnt even see Barbaro's best yet. The whole race's complexion changes if the breakdown does not occur and both horses run at 100%.

Geex, no more Barbaro comparisons please. Lets just say that both horses are awesome and clearly the #1 and #2 three year olds we've seen this year.

[sumitas]

Barabro is #1 at this point, clearly. I agree with Danzig.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by moodwalker

You think Barbaro could have handled the 1 1/2 of the Epsom Derby, or Maybe beaten Hurricane Run, Electrocutionist, and Hearts Cry yesterday at Ascot?

1 1/2 would've been no problem for Barbaro with his pedigree

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

1 1/2 would've been no problem for Barbaro with his pedigree

Being President of the United States shouldn't be a problem for me either. I was born a U.S. citizen.

The 1 1/2 miles of the Epsom Derby might have been a problem for him if you have seen the layout of the course, and the size and quality of the field.

[irishtrekker]

We'll never know either way. Both could have demolished all of the future fields they faced, but since we haven't seen them race together, I don't think it's as easy to predict a win one way or the other. Certainly Bernardini's Beyers have been amazing. At the same time, Barbaro would probably have given him a good run in the stretch, and who knows which horse would have scrapped their way through to the wire?

And Joel do you still believe that Lady Of venice is the greatest three year old grass filly?

[Betsy]

Originally Posted by oracle80

And Joel do you still believe that Lady Of venice is the greatest three year old grass filly?

So he was wrong about Lady of Venice and that makes him wrong about Bernardini? I find it funny that the only detractors of Bernardini are fans who can't see past Barbaro (I remember you yourself raved about his Preakness, then backed off); objective racing experts think he's the real deal (and no, it doesn't mean they are comparing him to all-time greats or anything premature like that). I haven't heard one racing writer denigrate this horse because Barbaro broke down in the Preakness or the track came up sloppy (Yeah, cause Bernardini was a sure thing on a kind of track he'd never seen before).......

Originally Posted by Betsy

So he was wrong about Lady of Venice and that makes him wrong about Bernardini? I find it funny that the only detractors of Bernardini are fans who can't see past Barbaro (I remember you yourself raved about his Preakness, then backed off); objective racing experts think he's the real deal (and no, it doesn't mean they are comparing him to all-time greats or anything premature like that). I haven't heard one racing writer denigrate this horse because Barbaro broke down in the Preakness or the track came up sloppy (Yeah, cause Bernardini was a sure thing on a kind of track he'd never seen before).......

I havent backed off him. I think hes a very good horse whose being made to look better by the fact that whats left of this three year old crop isn't very good, to say the least.
If you are gonna pull up old threads and beat your chest, how about pulling up the Scat Daddy is so great and lady of venice are so great threads as well.

[2Hot4TV]

Originally Posted by Betsy

That's your opinion, that's not fact. Bernardini might have beat Barbaro, but many people won't accept that. We will never know.

Betsy you can only see one horse in the whole racing world. Whats your connection to the horse?

Originally Posted by Betsy

So he was wrong about Lady of Venice and that makes him wrong about Bernardini? I find it funny that the only detractors of Bernardini are fans who can't see past Barbaro (I remember you yourself raved about his Preakness, then backed off); objective racing experts think he's the real deal (and no, it doesn't mean they are comparing him to all-time greats or anything premature like that). I haven't heard one racing writer denigrate this horse because Barbaro broke down in the Preakness or the track came up sloppy (Yeah, cause Bernardini was a sure thing on a kind of track he'd never seen before).......

Betsy I don't really care how you see things to be honest. The reason I brought up Lady of venice and Scat Daddy is that they were two examples I felt of horses who ran races that looked better to most people than they did to me. I felt they were very good horses, not great as described by Joel. I went on record this Saturday as saying that Venice was a total tossout before the race.
WIth Bern I think only an idiot would not concede that hes by far the best three year old in training and that hes a very good horse. But I'm reading HOY stuff and a RIDICULOUS comparison to horses like Ghostzapper. I can't stop laughing hard enough at that.
Its not Bern's fault that Barb broke down in that race and that SNS was sore and that Bro got hurt in the gate. His fig was great. Its also not Bern's fault that there is nothing left to beat in the 3YO ranks. But lets face it, before hes worthy of HOY cinch status and Ghostzapper comparisons, hes gotta actually hook up with a real field and win. If you think that running away from Hemingway's Key(I still can't stop laughing about that) is going to be like running away from Invasor or Ghostzapper or Lava Man you have another thing coming. Horses like that arent gonna be defeated with one knockout punch move, that move will. propel you past the three year olds left standing and take you to victory, against horses like Flower Alley or Invasor they arent just gonna let you cruise by and open up. Bern has also never won a stretch duel and never been tested in a case like that.

When I looked at the PP's on Lady of Venice and then said I might take her I thought she would be a price because of the company she had run against so far. The others had faced much tougher. I was wrong as everyone jumped on this horse. I jumped off. I think the track did not help her however.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Betsy I don't really care how you see things to be honest. The reason I brought up Lady of venice and Scat Daddy is that they were two examples I felt of horses who ran races that looked better to most people than they did to me. I felt they were very good horses, not great as described by Joel. I went on record this Saturday as saying that Venice was a total tossout before the race.
WIth Bern I think only an idiot would not concede that hes by far the best three year old in training and that hes a very good horse. But I'm reading HOY stuff and a RIDICULOUS comparison to horses like Ghostzapper. I can't stop laughing hard enough at that.
Its not Bern's fault that Barb broke down in that race and that SNS was sore and that Bro got hurt in the gate. His fig was great. Its also not Bern's fault that there is nothing left to beat in the 3YO ranks. But lets face it, before hes worthy of HOY cinch status and Ghostzapper comparisons, hes gotta actually hook up with a real field and win. If you think that running away from Hemingway's Key(I still can't stop laughing about that) is going to be like running away from Invasor or Ghostzapper or Lava Man you have another thing coming. Horses like that arent gonna be defeated with one knockout punch move, that move will. propel you past the three year olds left standing and take you to victory, against horses like Flower Alley or Invasor they arent just gonna let you cruise by and open up. Bern has also never won a stretch duel and never been tested in a case like that.

I think Bernardini has no competition in the 3 year old ranks. In fact, he doesnt have much competition from the older horse division. Invasor, Flower Alley and Lava Man are about it in my opinion. The horse looked good on Saturday but man that was a horrible field, but he won like he should have won. With Electrocutionist in the classic along with Flower Alley and Lava Man and Invasor, I give Bernardini little chance of winning that race. Bernardini will win all the races against 3 year olds but he wont beat the ones above.

Originally Posted by pgardn

When I looked at the PP's on Lady of Venice and then said I might take her I thought she would be a price because of the company she had run against so far. The others had faced much tougher. I was wrong as everyone jumped on this horse. I jumped off. I think the track did not help her however.

Well Lady Of Venice had every chance of winning the race. I honestly dont think she got that good of a ride. But she was very game in her defeat. I mean she lost to Angara who is a good turf horse. I think this was a great race for LOV. Shows that she is able to stay with the big girls.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

I think Bernardini has no competition in the 3 year old ranks. In fact, he doesnt have much competition from the older horse division. Invasor, Flower Alley and Lava Man are about it in my opinion. The horse looked good on Saturday but man that was a horrible field, but he won like he should have won. With Electrocutionist in the classic along with Flower Alley and Lava Man and Invasor, I give Bernardini little chance of winning that race. Bernardini will win all the races against 3 year olds but he wont beat the ones above.

I'm not ready to say he can't Euro, not at all. He may very well be the realest of deals. My opinion is that he hasn't beaten or done enough yet to concede that he will, and I have nothing against this horse or his connections or anything like that.
I just think its extremely irrational to declare him HOY and Ghostzapper-like for making a loose lead in the mud against horses like Hemingway's Key. Lets watch him win the Travers(which I have no doubt he will do) and then see how his last prep for the BC against older horses goes. I don't think its gonna be a Jim Dandy like result when he faces older horses.

Originally Posted by eurobounce

I think Bernardini has no competition in the 3 year old ranks. In fact, he doesnt have much competition from the older horse division. Invasor, Flower Alley and Lava Man are about it in my opinion. The horse looked good on Saturday but man that was a horrible field, but he won like he should have won. With Electrocutionist in the classic along with Flower Alley and Lava Man and Invasor, I give Bernardini little chance of winning that race. Bernardini will win all the races against 3 year olds but he wont beat the ones above.

Bernardini will crush all of those horses. No question about it. He is in a league all by himself. The horse ran a 113 in the Preakness and a 114 in his public workout on Saturday. He is the best in a long long time.