Graded Races

Danzig · #1 11-28-2007, 07:05 PM

just saw the article on bloodhorse, and once again oaklawns arkansas derby gets the shaft.

the Rebel stakes upgraded to a gr 2, the southwest to a 3.

but the arkansas derby, with its million dollar purse, still a grade 2. how does that make sense? kept at the same level as the rebel. how can the rebel and arkansas be considered equal??

whodey17 · #2 11-28-2007, 07:13 PM

the graded race system is a joke. there are way too many graded races out there.

Danzig · #3 11-28-2007, 07:15 PM

agreed.
but how do you move up the southwest and rebel...and leave the ark where it is? makes no sense.

Bobby Fischer · #4 11-28-2007, 07:58 PM

I don't know that the Arkansas is a natural grade 1.

MaTH716 · #5 11-28-2007, 08:07 PM

I do not think that it matters, as long as the purse is a million dollars they will continue to draw contenders. Just like it was mentioned in the BC thread, it only matters if you own the horse. If they left the Rebel as a G3 would you still be as upset?

SniperSB23 · #6 11-28-2007, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig

agreed.
but how do you move up the southwest and rebel...and leave the ark where it is? makes no sense.

The Rebel and the Arkansas Derby always have the same horses don't they?

SniperSB23 · #7 11-28-2007, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardus

No three-year-old race before the Kentucky Derby should have Grade I status.

That makes more sense to me than anything.

Danzig · #8 11-28-2007, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

The Rebel and the Arkansas Derby always have the same horses don't they?

i don't think so. seems every year horses ship in for the ark derby. but it did help the arkansas to have a graded prep at oaklawn. it's a really good series of races for three year olds, so at least it's possible to get graded earnings in more than one arky race.

as to whether the arkansas deserves to be a grade one, i just would argue the point that it shouldn't be the same level as the rebel.

SniperSB23 · #9 11-28-2007, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig

i don't think so. seems every year horses ship in for the ark derby. but it did help the arkansas to have a graded prep at oaklawn. it's a really good series of races for three year olds, so at least it's possible to get graded earnings in more than one arky race.

as to whether the arkansas deserves to be a grade one, i just would argue the point that it shouldn't be the same level as the rebel.

It just all doesn't work, the Derby field is split among 5+ preps, how can they all be G1s? Really how can any of them be G1 if the horses are split among five races? So let's call them all G2. Now the March preps for them have to be a lower grade so they have to be G3. That in turn would mean the February preps have to go down to ungraded which would mean they would have no relevance on graded stakes earnings and no one would run in them. So now we've ruined the whole Triple Crown prep season and given the trainers their excuse to wait until March to race just cause we can't have the Rebel and Arkansas have the same grade even though they have roughly the same field. Grading the Southwest was a good move, it should be relevant in getting into the Derby starting gate. Keep the Arkansas G2 and consider downgrading some (or all) of the G1 preps.

_ed_ · #10 11-28-2007, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardus

No three-year-old race before the Kentucky Derby should have Grade I status.

I agree with this.

blackthroatedwind · #11 11-28-2007, 10:53 PM

Me too.

Danzig · #12 11-29-2007, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

It just all doesn't work, the Derby field is split among 5+ preps, how can they all be G1s? Really how can any of them be G1 if the horses are split among five races? So let's call them all G2. Now the March preps for them have to be a lower grade so they have to be G3. That in turn would mean the February preps have to go down to ungraded which would mean they would have no relevance on graded stakes earnings and no one would run in them. So now we've ruined the whole Triple Crown prep season and given the trainers their excuse to wait until March to race just cause we can't have the Rebel and Arkansas have the same grade even though they have roughly the same field. Grading the Southwest was a good move, it should be relevant in getting into the Derby starting gate. Keep the Arkansas G2 and consider downgrading some (or all) of the G1 preps.

but by the same token, if those other big preps are gr 1, how can the ark derby not be? same purse as the fla derby. it should be on par with that one, the blue grass and the wood to name a few.
but i won't hold my breath waiting for those to get knocked down a peg, or the ark moving up.

it just seems there is no rhyme or reason to what gets graded. i also would have no problem with all preps being a lower grade than the derby. i guess i'm just looking for consistency, of which there isn't much.

SniperSB23 · #13 11-29-2007, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig

but by the same token, if those other big preps are gr 1, how can the ark derby not be? same purse as the fla derby. it should be on par with that one, the blue grass and the wood to name a few.
but i won't hold my breath waiting for those to get knocked down a peg, or the ark moving up.

it just seems there is no rhyme or reason to what gets graded. i also would have no problem with all preps being a lower grade than the derby. i guess i'm just looking for consistency, of which there isn't much.

I would think the Florida Derby is a good comparison to the Arkansas Derby and should probably be the first one to go G2. Santa Anita has various preps that keep everyone seperated until the SA Derby. The Wood and Blue Grass always have several notable shippers come in from other jurisdictions. So in the case of those three the big race is a step up from the preps. In the case of the Arkansas/Rebel and Florida/FOY it is pretty much the same horses competing in the prep as in the big dance, often they even lose horses from their preps to the Wood and Blue Grass.

slotdirt · #14 11-29-2007, 10:01 AM

The Arkansas Derby has been inherently more relevant than the Blue Grass to the Triple Crown trail for a number of years now. The fact that one is still a GI, but the other can't even sniff GI status is quite telling. The Cellas can't be happy.

SniperSB23 · #15 11-29-2007, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slotdirt

The Arkansas Derby has been inherently more relevant than the Blue Grass to the Triple Crown trail for a number of years now. The fact that one is still a GI, but the other can't even sniff GI status is quite telling. The Cellas can't be happy.

No more than the Rebel has been. The winners of the race is an impressive list. The second and third place horses is not an impressive list.

NTamm1215 · #16 11-29-2007, 10:04 AM

As far as the other races that were awarded Grade I status go, they were all very deserving. The Just A Game, while having a compact field the last two years, has long been an excellent race on the Belmont undercard that is never short on talent. The First Lady has offered two very salty groups in a row, with Gorella edging Karen's Caper in '06 and Vacare winning a stretch battle with Precious Kitten this year. The Maker's Mark Mile was perhaps the most deserving of a Grade I as this year's field included subsequent Grade I stakes winners Kip Deville, Purim, and Sky Conqueror.

Good decisions on those in my opinion.

NT

blackthroatedwind · #17 11-29-2007, 10:25 AM

I don't know about the Just a Game and frankly think it could be considered pandering to NY. The others do make some sense to me. However, I tend to agree with Sent2Stud somewhat in that there needs to be a limit to Grade 1s. I also understand it from an owners point of view but ultimately considering how rarely good horses run these days at some point we need to stop giving them more incentive to do so.

10 pnt move up · #18 11-29-2007, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I don't know about the Just a Game and frankly think it could be considered pandering to NY. The others do make some sense to me. However, I tend to agree with Sent2Stud somewhat in that there needs to be a limit to Grade 1s. I also understand it from an owners point of view but ultimately considering how rarely good horses run these days at some point we need to stop giving them more incentive to do so.

the less is more concept is not one that the racing industry will ever figure out.

horseofcourse · #19 11-29-2007, 03:31 PM

AS long as the criteria remains "graded stakes earnings" it really means nothing what grade they are as long as they're graded. All that matters with this announcement is the Southwest is now graded which pays dividends to the Oaklawn horses. For horses and trainers trying to get into the Ky Derby it is meaningless...the grade of the Ark Derby. I guess for breeding purposes if the Ark Derby becomes the only big race said horse wins it matters as he will not have his grade 1. That is the only "disadvantage" to the Ark Derby being a grade 1?? For me this actually makes the Ark Derby better keeping it a grade 2. But the fact the best horses in Arkansas the last 4 years were Curlin, Lawyer Ron, Afleet Alex and Smarty Jones tells me all I need to know. Regardless of what the races are graded, Oaklawn gets high quality horses pretty consistently on the Derby trail.

Danzig · #20 11-29-2007, 06:14 PM

so why is it, if some of the best the last few years ran there, that there is still resistence to the ark getting gr 1? why should scat daddy (for example) be proclaimed as this huge gr 1 winner, but curlin can trumpet one less gr 1 win?
what criteria is used to determine that the 1 million dollar fla derby is a 1, but the ark (and only other prep to offer that size purse) is a 2? they said after smarty jones that they wouldn't move after just one year. afleet alex, curlin, lawyer ron, and two years later...and no change. except to the southwest-whoopie.