Poly Prepping

[The Bid]

I wonder what the trainers who prepped over the polytrack think about it now? I would say its a no brainer... to run on dirt you prep over the dirt.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by The Bid

I wonder what the trainers who prepped over the polytrack think about it now? I would say its a no brainer... to run on dirt you prep over the dirt.

Hmmm...

Last time I checked, the horses that finished 1-2 had their last prep over the polytrack. If you're talking about training over dirt before a dirt race, I'd have to say that I probably agree with you... a work over the race surface certainly didn't hurt Street Sense or Hard Spun.

[paisjpq]

3 out of the top 5 had their final prep races on the poly...

[sumitas]

Why is that ? Hard Spun prepped over poly.

[declansharbor]

Originally Posted by The Bid

I wonder what the trainers who prepped over the polytrack think about it now? I would say its a no brainer... to run on dirt you prep over the dirt.

Sounds like the logical thing to do, but as said before the top runners prepped mostly on the poly...There goes that argument..

[jjf1031]

But I believe top five finishers all had final work over Churchill strip

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by The Bid

I wonder what the trainers who prepped over the polytrack think about it now? I would say its a no brainer... to run on dirt you prep over the dirt.

Oh yeah this makes tons of sense.
Of course as you are well aware, there were two standout performances in the derby, Street Sense and Hard Spun. Street Sense had his final derby prep on the poly in the Blue Grass. Hard Spun ran his final prep on the poly at Turfway in the Lanes End. My guess is that both trainers have no problem with poly given the results on Saturday.

It is total folly on your part to keep looking for the big poly fiasco.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Oh yeah this makes tons of sense.
Of course as you are well aware, there were two standout performances in the derby, Street Sense and Hard Spun. Street Sense had his final derby prep on the poly in the Blue Grass. Hard Spun ran his final prep on the poly at Turfway in the Lanes End. My guess is that both trainers have no problem with poly given the results on Saturday.

It is total folly on your part to keep looking for the big poly fiasco.

I'm fairly certain he's talking about horses who trained over the Churchill surface before running the Derby. Obviously, he didn't word it correctly.

Horses that had their final work over the CD surface include Street Sense, Hard Spun, Curlin, Imawildandcrazyguy, Sedgefield, Sam P., Zanjero, Dominican, Storm in May, Teuflesberg and Bwana Bull. (I may be missing a few, but those are the ones I remember.)

It seems that having a final work over the surface assisted the first 5 finishers unless it's coincidental.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

I'm fairly certain he's talking about horses who trained over the Churchill surface before running the Derby. Obviously, he didn't word it correctly.

Horses that had their final work over the CD surface include Street Sense, Hard Spun, Curlin, Imawildandcrazyguy, Sedgefield, Sam P., Zanjero, Dominican, Storm in May, Teuflesberg and Bwana Bull. (I may be missing a few, but those are the ones I remember.)

It seems that having a final work over the surface assisted the first 5 finishers unless it's coincidental.

obviously though the argument can be made that this is no different from any other time when it is beneficial to work over the track where the race is held...regardless of surface.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

obviously though the argument can be made that this is no different from any other time when it is beneficial to work over the track where the race is held...regardless of surface.

Agreed... makes complete sense to do that.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

obviously though the argument can be made that this is no different from any other time when it is beneficial to work over the track where the race is held...regardless of surface.

precisely, its been done on dirt tracks as long as I can remember. Some trainers do it, some don't. Some horses need it, others don't.

[Bobby Fischer]

you obviously need to have a trainer or jockey with a southern accent to be in the derby exacta.

[whodey17]

I really hate the phrase "Derby Prep." Makes it sound like the trainer is just practicing for the Derby. Anyway, I think we will find that trainers will want their horse as sound as possible come Derby day. And if you believe that running on Poly or any other Synthetic surface if healthier for your horse then why not have your final prep on a synthetic surface rather than a dirt surface. Then give you horse a work and some gallops over the dirt surface. Bailey and Moss made a point on ESPN that made sense to me...they basically said that the synthetic surface is so forgiving that the horse just bounces over the surface therefor not giving the proper conditioning the horse needs.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by whodey17

Bailey and Moss made a point on ESPN that made sense to me...they basically said that the synthetic surface is so forgiving that the horse just bounces over the surface therefor not giving the proper conditioning the horse needs.

The Derby is a unique race where horses have to be 100% fit to win. Prepping horses over the poly where they do not have to work as hard as they do over the dirt is not going to work if you train as though you are training over dirt. Pletcher screwed up because he trains almost all of his horses in the same manner regardless of the horse or surface. Pretty much you are going to get 5 furlongs in between 59 and 102 in company 6-8 days apart. That is fine in most races especially when you have talented horses. Many good horses can win by being 95% fit but the Derby, Triple Crown races and Breeders Cup to an extent are different animals. Circular Quay had 5 works between his race on March 10 and the Derby on May 5th. Between March 14 and Derby day the winner had 6 works and 2 races. How can a horse be fit enough to win going 1 mile and 1/4 against the best of his generation with this type of preperation? We have been using the rule of thumb that polyworks are about a second and a half faster than dirt works which means a 100 five furlong poly work is equal to about 101.3 on the Dirt. My horses seem to be about that much faster working 4 and 5 furlongs over the poly than they do over dirt regardless of class level. If you are going to work exclusively over the poly to prepare for a race like the Derby, you better adjust and do a whole lot more than you would on the dirt.

[whodey17]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The Derby is a unique race where horses have to be 100% fit to win. Prepping horses over the poly where they do not have to work as hard as they do over the dirt is not going to work if you train as though you are training over dirt. Pletcher screwed up because he trains almost all of his horses in the same manner regardless of the horse or surface. Pretty much you are going to get 5 furlongs in between 59 and 102 in company 6-8 days apart. That is fine in most races especially when you have talented horses. Many good horses can win by being 95% fit but the Derby, Triple Crown races and Breeders Cup to an extent are different animals. Circular Quay had 5 works between his race on March 10 and the Derby on May 5th. Between March 14 and Derby day the winner had 6 works and 2 races. How can a horse be fit enough to win going 1 mile and 1/4 against the best of his generation with this type of preperation? We have been using the rule of thumb that polyworks are about a second and a half faster than dirt works which means a 100 five furlong poly work is equal to about 101.3 on the Dirt. My horses seem to be about that much faster working 4 and 5 furlongs over the poly than they do over dirt regardless of class level. If you are going to work exclusively over the poly to prepare for a race like the Derby, you better adjust and do a whole lot more than you would on the dirt.

Good post Cannon and thanks for the info.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The Derby is a unique race where horses have to be 100% fit to win. Prepping horses over the poly where they do not have to work as hard as they do over the dirt is not going to work if you train as though you are training over dirt. Pletcher screwed up because he trains almost all of his horses in the same manner regardless of the horse or surface. Pretty much you are going to get 5 furlongs in between 59 and 102 in company 6-8 days apart. That is fine in most races especially when you have talented horses. Many good horses can win by being 95% fit but the Derby, Triple Crown races and Breeders Cup to an extent are different animals. Circular Quay had 5 works between his race on March 10 and the Derby on May 5th. Between March 14 and Derby day the winner had 6 works and 2 races. How can a horse be fit enough to win going 1 mile and 1/4 against the best of his generation with this type of preperation? We have been using the rule of thumb that polyworks are about a second and a half faster than dirt works which means a 100 five furlong poly work is equal to about 101.3 on the Dirt. My horses seem to be about that much faster working 4 and 5 furlongs over the poly than they do over dirt regardless of class level. If you are going to work exclusively over the poly to prepare for a race like the Derby, you better adjust and do a whole lot more than you would on the dirt.

Good stuff Chuck...

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by The Bid

I wonder what the trainers who prepped over the polytrack think about it now? I would say its a no brainer... to run on dirt you prep over the dirt.

then maybe they are saying to prep for the derby you Run on Poly, ie street sense, hard spun, sedgefield

[Bobby Fischer]

its a unique situation for each horse.

Street Sense could have prepped anywhere. It was just a matter of not being too muddy, Pletcher not smashing him with cowtown cat at the break, and then not getting cut off or sent 10 wide on his late run. - No advantage


Hard Spun - he has some major turf in his pedigree and the lanesEnd set up like a dream prep. His action was nice over the polytrack and he flys over it. The race was cheap enough for him to dominate, but fast enough early to properly prepare him. It was a good spot after the southwest, and it didn't hurt that he loved the surface and could concentrate on simply re-establishing his form.

Sedgefield - He never ran on dirt so it was either turf or synthetic , and his last race prior to the derby was turf - no big deal.

Dominican - It helped me for him to run in the bluegrass because it gave the illusion that he could get 10 furlongs.

Zanjero - not a big deal he closes anyway

Great Hunter - possibly hurt him, because he got taken out of the action part of the race and didn't get anything from the prep.

Tueflesberg - should have helped general form because he Prado did so well to rate in the bluegrass , but you need to be a contender first before you worry about little details

[Danzig]

perhaps the good ones can run over either or....but unlike hard spun, does street sense actually have a win over poly?

the danzig line only strengthened, a tri-surface sire! hard spun will be worth his weight in gold.

[PeteMugg]

Or maybe two quality horses managed to find the short way around in a race that was adding distance. Love to see a trackus on this one.