need advice re praying in school

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

as i said, it's not the problem about prayer, it has to do with the fact it was declared unconstitutional--and i don't think my children should be used to defy a supreme court ruling.

i probably will let it go for now. it it bothers me that it's happening, but i do know it would open a tremendously huge can of worms. and of course my kids would be the one to get the grief, not me--so much.

thanks to everyone for their comments, i appreciate you chiming in.

and rupe, most cities don't require you to sit at a red light later at night due to carjacking concerns...most places set them to go to flashing lights at night.

i just happen to get a bit burned when people try to pull a majority rules, so we're right thing..which is what this is, the majority doesn't rule, the constitution is supposed to. it's a pet peeve of mine!

thanks again everyone.

The funny thing is that I'm not sure that's it's necessarily unconstitutional. You know how those things work with the Supreme Court. One court may rule that something is unconstitutional and then another court may disagree. We may even see Roe v Wade overturned. I doubt it will happen but it is possible.

Anyway, depending on who happens to be sitting on the Supreme Court, you may get a totally different interpretation of what is considered Consitutional. There are plenty of judges who would not find it unconstituional if a short period was set aside at public schools for people to pray if they choose to. Whether prayer is allowed in public schools is not a cut and dry thing. If students were being forced to pray and forced to recognize a certain religion, then this would clearly be uncostitutional. But if students are given a choice, then that is very debatable as to whether that would be unconstitutional. In my opinion, that would definitely be permissable under our Constitution and I know that plenty of judges would agree with me.

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Those are all good ideas ... but ...

A supreme court run by private companies...

Brilliant!

HOly mackerel.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

The funny thing is that I'm not sure that's it's necessarily unconstitutional. You know how those things work with the Supreme Court. One court may rule that something is unconstitutional and then another court may disagree. We may even see Roe v Wade overturned. I doubt it will happen but it is possible.

Anyway, depending on who happens to be sitting on the Supreme Court, you may get a totally different interpretation of what is considered Consitutional. There are plenty of judges who would not find it unconstituional if a short period was set aside at public schools for people to pray if they choose to. Whether prayer is allowed in public schools is not a cut and dry thing. If students were being forced to pray and forced to recognize a certain religion, then this would clearly be uncostitutional. But if students are given a choice, then that is very debatable as to whether that would be unconstitutional. In my opinion, that would definitely be permissable under our Constitution and I know that plenty of judges would agree with me.

There is no prayer in public schools in Texas. Because of a US supreme court ruling.
Your probably sell crack coke to kids also.
Lawbreaker.
Convict.
Outlaw.

Love,

BB

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

The funny thing is that I'm not sure that's it's necessarily unconstitutional. You know how those things work with the Supreme Court. One court may rule that something is unconstitutional and then another court may disagree. We may even see Roe v Wade overturned. I doubt it will happen but it is possible.

Anyway, depending on who happens to be sitting on the Supreme Court, you may get a totally different interpretation of what is considered Consitutional. There are plenty of judges who would not find it unconstituional if a short period was set aside at public schools for people to pray if they choose to. Whether prayer is allowed in public schools is not a cut and dry thing. If students were being forced to pray and forced to recognize a certain religion, then this would clearly be uncostitutional. But if students are given a choice, then that is very debatable as to whether that would be unconstitutional. In my opinion, that would definitely be permissable under our Constitution and I know that plenty of judges would agree with me.

i did some research last night, as i wanted to make sure of what was what before i mentioned anything. the court over the last forty years has consistently ruled against any kind of prayer at school functions with the sole exception of commencement. not at games, not at schools, not even student-led.
there are different groups that meet at school, and of course religious groups are among those..but that's voluntary as to whether you want to participate, so there's no finding of it being unconstitutional solely due to religion being at a public school. but they've ruled over and over that any prayer held school wide is 'coerced' for lack of a better word from me right now...been up since 250 this am, so that's the best i can come up with.

but due to where we live, and the job i've got, then i'd imagine i'll be listening to somer on this....it's a small town, with a small town, very narrow minded bunch of people. it's funny, i like living where i live as far as my job, my husband likes his, we're happy with our lives. we just don't socialize much! we truly don't fit in here.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i did some research last night, as i wanted to make sure of what was what before i mentioned anything. the court over the last forty years has consistently ruled against any kind of prayer at school functions with the sole exception of commencement. not at games, not at schools, not even student-led.
there are different groups that meet at school, and of course religious groups are among those..but that's voluntary as to whether you want to participate, so there's no finding of it being unconstitutional solely due to religion being at a public school. but they've ruled over and over that any prayer held school wide is 'coerced' for lack of a better word from me right now...been up since 250 this am, so that's the best i can come up with.

but due to where we live, and the job i've got, then i'd imagine i'll be listening to somer on this....it's a small town, with a small town, very narrow minded bunch of people. it's funny, i like living where i live as far as my job, my husband likes his, we're happy with our lives. we just don't socialize much! we truly don't fit in here.

How many of these types of cases have come before the Supreme Court? Do you know if the decisions were unanimous? I bet there were some dissenters. If I am correct that there were dissenters, that would mean that at least some Justices on the Court have a different interpretation of what is premissable under the Constitution with regard to prayer.

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i did some research last night, as i wanted to make sure of what was what before i mentioned anything. the court over the last forty years has consistently ruled against any kind of prayer at school functions with the sole exception of commencement. not at games, not at schools, not even student-led.
there are different groups that meet at school, and of course religious groups are among those..but that's voluntary as to whether you want to participate, so there's no finding of it being unconstitutional solely due to religion being at a public school. but they've ruled over and over that any prayer held school wide is 'coerced' for lack of a better word from me right now...been up since 250 this am, so that's the best i can come up with.

but due to where we live, and the job i've got, then i'd imagine i'll be listening to somer on this....it's a small town, with a small town, very narrow minded bunch of people. it's funny, i like living where i live as far as my job, my husband likes his, we're happy with our lives. we just don't socialize much! we truly don't fit in here.

I hope for your kids the science classes are OK. Sometimes in these types of communities they are absolutely horrible. I will never forget when one kid we got that was home schooled from one of these areas came to our school and the parents wanted credit for Biology. We asked to see what text they used and what work she had done. The text was like a Noah's Ark coloring book explaining the Arc ta da ta da. She had of course had colored and filled in the blanks in rote... We were absolutley horrified. NOthing about cells, nothing about basic ideas of what science is and is not, nothing about fossils and life from the past, no basic biochemistry... Good God.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

How many of these types of cases have come before the Supreme Court? Do you know if the decisions were unanimous? I bet there were some dissenters. If I am correct that there were dissenters, that would mean that at least some Justices on the Court have a different interpretation of what is premissable under the Constitution with regard to prayer.

If public schools carry out school prayer you can forget getting public federal funds. No federal lunches for the districts disadvantaged kids, no nothing. Sorry, but this is the truth, like it or not, in Texas. I cant imagine Texas would read things completely differently than other states. Gdub did not try and mess with it. He complained that it was wrong, but his legal staff told him no way.

Originally Posted by pgardn

A supreme court run by private companies...

Brilliant!

HOly mackerel.

Couldn't do worse than Ruth Buzzi Ginsburg ... Stephen All-Natural Breyer ... John Paul I'm-Not-Even Stevens ... and David Who-Am-I Souter.

Nope ... couldn't possibly.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

How many of these types of cases have come before the Supreme Court? Do you know if the decisions were unanimous? I bet there were some dissenters. If I am correct that there were dissenters, that would mean that at least some Justices on the Court have a different interpretation of what is premissable under the Constitution with regard to prayer.

What's permissible is quite clear in the Constitution ...

... Congress may not establish a Federally-approved religion.

That's it ... nothing else.

If the voters of a state chose to establish an approved religion ... or non-religion ... for that state ... it would be perfectly Constitutional.

Of course ... that's based on what the Constitution actually says ... not what activist leftist "jurists" wish it said.

Originally Posted by pgardn

I hope for your kids the science classes are OK. Sometimes in these types of communities they are absolutely horrible. I will never forget when one kid we got that was home schooled from one of these areas came to our school and the parents wanted credit for Biology. We asked to see what text they used and what work she had done. The text was like a Noah's Ark coloring book explaining the Arc ta da ta da. She had of course had colored and filled in the blanks in rote... We were absolutley horrified. NOthing about cells, nothing about basic ideas of what science is and is not, nothing about fossils and life from the past, no basic biochemistry... Good God.

Wouldn't it be much better .. simpler ... and fairer ... if government at all levels ... simply disengaged from the education business ... and parents made all the choices of the types of schooling that they desired for their children?

You're tying yourself in knots ... trying to justify the current system ... simply to maintain leftist control over education.

Let loose ... be a real liberal ... let each family decide for itself.

Originally Posted by pgardn

If public schools carry out school prayer you can forget getting public federal funds. No federal lunches for the districts disadvantaged kids, no nothing.

Now you're making sense !!!

MC Hammer aka Hammer was quoted as saying
"we GOT to pray, just to make it today"
prayer never hurt anybody
although I do worry about the Pentecostals
who go into convulsions during prayer

[GenuineRisk]

BB, go back and reread your Constitution. It says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," not "of A religion." The exclusion of that indefinite article is not by accident.

Danzig, I'm sorry you're in this position. I feel school prayer is coercive, regardless of it being "voluntary" or not, because kids who choose not to participate can be ostracized and I think what your kids' principal is doing is unethical, to say the least. But I don't know what I'd do in your case-- in a larger sense, all of us standing by while religious zealots yank religion into the public zone is bad, but on an individual level, it's not good to make one's kids pariahs, either. Damned if you do; damned if you don't.

But look, if you do decide to do something, find out if the ACLU can take the case without you having to be publicly dragged into it. That's their job-- they pursue every civil liberties issue they can, winning some and losing others, so hopefully we maintain some kind of bearable middle ground. I don't think they're out to make outcasts of the people they represent.

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Couldn't do worse than Ruth Buzzi Ginsburg ... Stephen All-Natural Breyer ... John Paul I'm-Not-Even Stevens ... and David Who-Am-I Souter.

Nope ... couldn't possibly.

What about the guy with the pubic hairs in the soft drink that cant think for himself. And holy shi tskiiies his idol, Mr. Scalia. The guy has no idea what science is and is not and completely misunderstands the basics of evolution based on his dissents. I mean he does not understand a basic principal of science. Brilliant again! So add these two to the list.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

The funny thing is that I'm not sure that's it's necessarily unconstitutional. You know how those things work with the Supreme Court. One court may rule that something is unconstitutional and then another court may disagree. We may even see Roe v Wade overturned. I doubt it will happen but it is possible.

Anyway, depending on who happens to be sitting on the Supreme Court, you may get a totally different interpretation of what is considered Consitutional. There are plenty of judges who would not find it unconstituional if a short period was set aside at public schools for people to pray if they choose to. Whether prayer is allowed in public schools is not a cut and dry thing. If students were being forced to pray and forced to recognize a certain religion, then this would clearly be uncostitutional. But if students are given a choice, then that is very debatable as to whether that would be unconstitutional. In my opinion, that would definitely be permissable under our Constitution and I know that plenty of judges would agree with me.

but ever since the first ruling, there has been no 'chipping away' about the matter. not too many rulings are unanimous. it doesn't mean that there is any ambiguity regarding the rule....

after what i've looked up, it seems pretty cut and dried....a student has every right to pray in school, whether aloud or silent, before class, at lunch, etc. a group can get together and pray...the unconstitutionality has to do with what my daughters school is currently doing--the entire student body and staff stand as one while a prayer is said over the intercom. that's over the line according to everything i've seen--due to the fact that it has crossed the line from volunteerism to coercion.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

BB, go back and reread your Constitution. It says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," not "of A religion." The exclusion of that indefinite article is not by accident.

Danzig, I'm sorry you're in this position. I feel school prayer is coercive, regardless of it being "voluntary" or not, because kids who choose not to participate can be ostracized and I think what your kids' principal is doing is unethical, to say the least. But I don't know what I'd do in your case-- in a larger sense, all of us standing by while religious zealots yank religion into the public zone is bad, but on an individual level, it's not good to make one's kids pariahs, either. Damned if you do; damned if you don't.

But look, if you do decide to do something, find out if the ACLU can take the case without you having to be publicly dragged into it. That's their job-- they pursue every civil liberties issue they can, winning some and losing others, so hopefully we maintain some kind of bearable middle ground. I don't think they're out to make outcasts of the people they represent.

after talking to my daughter, and reading everyones comments here...well, here's what i think i'm going to do...
i'm going to type a letter and send it to all the school board members about what's going on, as well as a printout or two of what i've found regarding supreme court rulings, etc...in the letter i'm going to inform them that a copy is being sent to the aclu here in this state to let them know what's up. but i'm going to remain anonymous. i will do what i can, but i'm not going to push it to the point that my kids have to deal with anything. thankfully i only have four more years to deal with this school system.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

after talking to my daughter, and reading everyones comments here...well, here's what i think i'm going to do...
i'm going to type a letter and send it to all the school board members about what's going on, as well as a printout or two of what i've found regarding supreme court rulings, etc...in the letter i'm going to inform them that a copy is being sent to the aclu here in this state to let them know what's up. but i'm going to remain anonymous. i will do what i can, but i'm not going to push it to the point that my kids have to deal with anything. thankfully i only have four more years to deal with this school system.

Dazig,
Besides the ACLU, send a copy to your State Attorney General, Governor, and senate and house of rep people.
Case law is very clear.
DTS

[Danzig]

lol
wonder what the gov down here would say...he's a right wing, baptist minister republican....

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

lol
wonder what the gov down here would say...he's a right wing, baptist minister republican....

That's pretty funny.
Send it certified mail, return receipt requested.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

What's permissible is quite clear in the Constitution ...

... Congress may not establish a Federally-approved religion.

That's it ... nothing else.

If the voters of a state chose to establish an approved religion ... or non-religion ... for that state ... it would be perfectly Constitutional.

Of course ... that's based on what the Constitution actually says ... not what activist leftist "jurists" wish it said.

Bold Fraud again displays his overwhelming knowledge of the federal system of government. States can not, repeat NOT!!! establish a state approved religion or non-religion, anymore than some states could perpetuate segregation, voter registration policies or "selective employment" policies.
Bold Fraud, if you keep this up, just climb on to the manure spreader so at least what you say can have the benefit of becoming feritilzer.
It would be a better use for your b u l l s h i t than stinking up this board with it!