Stupid breeding question

[brianwspencer]

I feel stupid for not knowing this already.......but......I was thinking about the Dreaming of Anna/Lewis Michael connection.

Let's say Dreaming of Anna turns out to be a superhorse (just give me this one for the sake of this question....because it addresses a more general idea later) and wins the majority of her career races, and racks up several grade I wins as a 3yo and as an older mare.

She goes to the shed and produces another precocious, top-level two/three year old.

Does Lewis Michael, by default, become a sought after stallion? Obviously, he's generally always overmatched in graded races, but is not a completely useless horse by any stretch. If his full sister becomes a good producer, does he generally get perceived as a good pedigree starting point?

Or is there an inherenetly major difference, from the pedigree standpoint, in what a top-level mare like Dreaming of Anna passes to her offspring as opposed to what her less-successful full brother would pass on as a stallion?

[paisjpq]

siblings...esp full sibling will always benefit from the success of their brothers and sisters...
but this is more true about fillies than colts IMO...the breeding parachute will open wider for a well bred unraced filly with good siblings than it will for a colt in the same situation...
I don't think DOA will increase LM potential stud value much...which doesn't mean that I think they might pass on different things just that it is how the market operates...it will forgive a filly for not running but not a stud.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

siblings...esp full sibling will always benefit from the success of their brothers and sisters...
but this is more true about fillies than colts IMO...the breeding parachute will open wider for a well bred unraced filly with good siblings than it will for a colt in the same situation...
I don't think DOA will increase LM potential stud value much...

So, essentially, no matter how good she may get or how good her offspring turn out to be on the track, Lewis Michael would still be standing on just his own accomplishments?

I don't get the biology of how the traits/success is passed down very well -- do you know why it wouldn't work vice versa for Lewis Michael?

[paisjpq]

I edited my post above...they have the same DNA so the potential to pass on the same traits is there...i just think that it is a market issue. And then OF COURSE you have to go through the whole nature vs. nurture debate.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

So, essentially, no matter how good she may get or how good her offspring turn out to be on the track, Lewis Michael would still be standing on just his own accomplishments?

I don't get the biology of how the traits/success is passed down very well -- do you know why it wouldn't work vice versa for Lewis Michael?

he can benefit from her success but he won't get a stud deal out of it unless he does some running himself...or he stands in Utah or something.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

he can benefit from her success but he won't get a stud deal out of it unless he does some running himself...or he stands in Utah or something.

haha.

I would think he'd be useful as an Illinois stallion at this point -- there isn't much standing in Illinois really. Cartwright was about as good as it got, and he's gone now.

Who knows....we'll see. I just wondered how the market/breeders react to general sibling success like that -- thanks B.

[Scav]

Look at Unforgettable Max....I think he is a full to Afleet Alex (can't verify with pedigreequery right now) but he didn't do much on the track.

Eavesdropper is another one

[Scav]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

haha.

I would think he'd be useful as an Illinois stallion at this point -- there isn't much standing in Illinois really. Cartwright was about as good as it got, and he's gone now.

Who knows....we'll see. I just wondered how the market/breeders react to general sibling success like that -- thanks B.

There is a good chance that he might stand in Illinois, unless he goes and wins a couple Graded races

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I don't get the biology of how the traits/success is passed down very well -- do you know why it wouldn't work vice versa for Lewis Michael?

No one knows it well. There are some basic rules to follow but genetics is an extraordinarily difficult thing to predict. Now you will get few admiting this but its the truth.

There is not one gene in the horse genome that anyone has related to racing success. And the mapping of the thoroughbred genome is very close to complete.

[slotdirt]

I wouldn't say Unforgettable Max was a dud on the track. He ran a few decent races.

[LARHAGE]

It is also a big difference in that even if Dreaming of Anna herself had never won a race, the relatively minor exploits of Lewis Michael would have enabled her to get a breeding season to nice 2nd or 3rd tier stallions in Kentucky, the fact she has become a multiple stakes winner, especially a Grade 1 stakes winner has opened her up to the most elite of the Stallions, ie Stoem Cat etc.. however, her explots on the track will not merit Lewis Michael anywhere near the caliber of elite mares to breed. He's strictly on his own as far as mare owners are concerned.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Let's say Dreaming of Anna turns out to be a superhorse (just give me this one for the sake of this question....because it addresses a more general idea later) and wins the majority of her career races, and racks up several grade I wins as a 3yo and as an older mare.

She goes to the shed and produces another precocious, top-level two/three year old.

Does Lewis Michael, by default, become a sought after stallion? Obviously, he's generally always overmatched in graded races, but is not a completely useless horse by any stretch. If his full sister becomes a good producer, does he generally get perceived as a good pedigree starting point?

Not only is Lewis Michael a full sibling to (soon to be) champion 2-year-old filly Dreaming of Anna.

But, he comes from a multiple turf stakes winning dam who's kin to champion turf horse Kitten's Joy.

Lewish Micheal's 2nd dam is also kin to Down the Aisle, who was a millionaire turf specialist, and won a Grade 1 race at age 7.

His 3rd dam is also kin to a Mother Goose winner.

His overall pedigree will obviously enhance his value as a stallion prospect. However, I'd only seen him being sought after by some breeder looking for a young stallion in the lower-middle price range, that might have the potential to throw a good grass miler...and wouldn't figure to be a liability as a dirt sire.