"Do We Need a Sturdier Racehorse?"

[Kasept]

If you've listened to ATR the last few days, we've been asking guests for their interpretations of the themes Bill Finley addressed in his excellent and extensive 'Do We Need a Sturdier Racehorse?' piece for Thoroughbred Daily News. The questions raised by Finley focus around why racehorses today appear less sound, or perhaps more directly, less capable of hearty campaigns. Essentially, the question is asked "Why is a 5 or 6 start season and 8-12 start career typical for today's 'best' horses?"

Here is the pdf: http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com...0Racehorse.pdf

It's a fascinating topic that has no one 'correct' answer...

Has breeding weakened the thoroughbred?

Are training methods to blame?

Under or Over training/racing of young horses?

Lasix and other medication reliance?

Track surfaces?

Bloodstock or Horse Owner economics?

Trainer statistical awareness and effect?

Sheet figure 'bounce' philosophy?

Please read Finley's piece, vote in the poll and share your extended thoughts. I think it's as important a discussion as there is regarding the game currently.

[Danzig]

i think the number one culprit in the changes to the sport/breed would be commercial breeders. horses raised like hothouse flowers, not allowed to romp in fields to get much needed exercise. instead, they are stall kept to keep from marring their coats, limbs, because they won't bring as much at auction if they aren't perfect. surgeries to correct impairments to make them look good. steroids to make them look big, fit. then there's the fear of running a horse enough to bring losses, as that affects stud fees when they retire.

in 'the good old days' breeders raced their horses to show they had the right breeding programs, to show off the results of their hard work at finding just the right combination of sire and dam which could take years of hard work to create good families. the colts and fillies showcased the stallion, who got more business because he showed he could get a good horse. his progeny raced often, and for years, to show off a farm and it's efforts. now, it's race enough to get a gr 1 and retire to chase that money.
the sport isn't about racing now, it's about money. it's why i still root for the few farms with homebreds and old school methods like claiborne, and of course the phipps.

[Echo Farm]

Good topic.

I'm no expert or even that knowledgeable about equine physiology, but I would think they don't get enough physical training and exercise.
Human athletes regularly workout. Even Tiger Woods trains 2-10 hours every day when not playing.

(I'm assuming that's in addition to his evening workouts)

[Thunder Gulch]

There is no simple answer, and reasons may vary from case to case, but I do think that the trainers getting on board with "sheet" style patterning for their horses has been a huge detriment. That doesn't mean their method doesn't work, but it is changing the approach a lot of trainers are taking. A lot of these arguments presented go back 20 years, breeding, surfaces, medication, juvenile training/racing, but I think that everyone trying to space races for a "peak" effort is the biggest problem. It has only been 15 years since Cigar was 10 for 10 and Mineshaft won 7 of 9 just seven short years ago....However, when Ghostzapper ran off the page multiple times in spaced races (by necessity) in 2004, the winds started to shift. It was just a few years later that Street Sense wins the Derby off of 2 starts, which was the first time that happened in 25 years. Now the argument can be made that these carefully mapped programs were protecting the investment from the perils of racing, but regardless of why, everyone starts buying into the race-rest-train-race programs. Then you get the wildly popular Zenyatta team protecting a streak, and the notion of racing into shape is completely gone. The "tightener" and allowance prep races are a thing of the past.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Echo Farm

Good topic.

I'm no expert or even that knowledgeable about equine physiology, but I would think they don't get enough physical training and exercise.
Human athletes regularly workout. Even Tiger Woods trains 2-10 hours every day when not playing.

(I'm assuming that's in addition to his evening workouts)

There are very few similarities between humans and horses, most notable among the differences the number of legs each has.

[Cannon Shell]

It is interesting that basic field size has remained the same despite the drop in number of starts per year per horse.

The thing that always baffles me is how the period of the 70's when there was an unprecedented jump in the number of horses produced always seems to escape people when they talk about the "weakening" of the breed. You dont have to be an expert to understand that the average horse in a foal crop of 60000 is "weaker" than the average horse in a foal crop of 25000. This is even more pronounced when you remember that the breed is selected, not naturally occurring. Lesser breeding stock was allowed into the gene pool in order to increase the numbers so dramatically.

[keithting]

Lasix, lasix, and more lasix.....

It works the same way in humans - the more medicine you take, the "less hearty" you become and the more medical problems that eventually result.

There was also a great roundtable article in the Bloodhorse several years ago (around 2008). One of the panel members talked about the lower nutrient quality in equine feed today. I believe that this is also true in humans where our foodstuff has less nutrients and vitamin-content than it did say 80 years ago.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The thing that always baffles me is how the period of the 70's when there was an unprecedented jump in the number of horses produced always seems to escape people when they talk about the "weakening" of the breed. You dont have to be an expert to understand that the average horse in a foal crop of 60000 is "weaker" than the average horse in a foal crop of 25000. This is even more pronounced when you remember that the breed is selected, not naturally occurring. Lesser breeding stock was allowed into the gene pool in order to increase the numbers so dramatically.

This doesn't make sense at all to me.

The more breeding you do - the better your population should get over time.

Speed wins horse races - and early developing horses are always attractive to owners - that's what the market wants.

Lets say there's no purse money for winning or order of finish at all - and horses are simply asked to race 30 times a year with limited medication for three straight years under the same training program . If you use the 5% of males who best stand up to this type of program - and keep breeding them to a hundred mares each ... I doubt you'd see a weakening breed.

Horses, however slowly they run, who can simply answer the bell over and over without much medication aren't the ones rewarded to stand stud.

The ones rewarded to stud are the ones who are simply the standout performers and can run the fastest six or seven times a year - and do so with the aid of medication that is helpful to their performance.

Winning matters. If the sport was Commie run - the breed would be a whole lot tougher even if you're letting every single female who wasn't euthanized from racing into the gene pool.

[Round Pen]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i think the number one culprit in the changes to the sport/breed would be commercial breeders. horses raised like hothouse flowers, not allowed to romp in fields to get much needed exercise. instead, they are stall kept to keep from marring their coats, limbs, because they won't bring as much at auction if they aren't perfect. surgeries to correct impairments to make them look good. steroids to make them look big, fit. then there's the fear of running a horse enough to bring losses, as that affects stud fees when they retire.

in 'the good old days' breeders raced their horses to show they had the right breeding programs, to show off the results of their hard work at finding just the right combination of sire and dam which could take years of hard work to create good families. the colts and fillies showcased the stallion, who got more business because he showed he could get a good horse. his progeny raced often, and for years, to show off a farm and it's efforts. now, it's race enough to get a gr 1 and retire to chase that money.
the sport isn't about racing now, it's about money. it's why i still root for the few farms with homebreds and old school methods like claiborne, and of course the phipps.

You absolutely hit the nail right on the head babies need to be babies. Just think about it from the time a horse is born till the time it makes its first start, there is a possibilty that horse could go through 3 or 4 sales. and when there in a sale they are in a stall sometimes weeks or even a couple of months prior to the sale. And that time spent in a stall could be spent romping around in a paddock and that is what builds bone when there young.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Round Pen

You absolutely hit the nail right on the head babies need to be babies. Just think about it from the time a horse is born till the time it makes its first start, there is a possibilty that horse could go through 3 or 4 sales. and when there in a sale they are in a stall sometimes weeks or even a couple of months prior to the sale. And that time spent in a stall could be spent romping around in a paddock and that is what builds bone when there young.

I dont think this is the majority of horses though. Disproportionally horses raised like this are the best bred ones which is hurting the top of the game which is the most visable obviously.

[Round Pen]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I dont think this is the majority of horses though. Disproportionally horses raised like this are the best bred ones which is hurting the top of the game which is the most visable obviously.

Respectfully disagree take the 1st book out of the Keeneland yearling sale and thats 4,000 take another 1000 in the OBS August sale then take 1200 in the OBS April Sale thats a whole lots of of middle of the road horses and bottom of the barrell types that get hot housed just like the top tier ones and that does not even begin to count all the fasig tipton sales like Oct yearling which had 1300 this year and all there 2 year old sales with the cream of the crop being in Miami.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Round Pen

Respectfully disagree take the 1st book out of the Keeneland yearling sale and thats 4,000 take another 1000 in the OBS August sale then take 1200 in the OBS April Sale thats a whole lots of of middle of the road horses and bottom of the barrell types that get hot housed just like the top tier ones and that does not even begin to count all the fasig tipton sales like Oct yearling which had 1300 this year and all there 2 year old sales with the cream of the crop being in Miami.

Why would you take the first book of keeneland out? Those are the most likely to be pampered. I have a hard time believing that the vast majority of OBS horses are hothoused.

There certainly arent 4000 keeneland horses or virtually any in the Oct sale taht are hothoused. The ones kept in the stall that sell in the Oct sale are just crippled.

And how do you hot house horses in training?

[Princess Doreen]

Originally Posted by Kasept

If you've listened to ATR the last few days, we've been asking guests for their interpretations of the themes Bill Finley addressed in his excellent and extensive 'Do We Need a Sturdier Racehorse?' piece for Thoroughbred Daily News. The questions raised by Finley focus around why racehorses today appear less sound, or perhaps more directly, less capable of hearty campaigns. Essentially, the question is asked "Why is a 5 or 6 start season and 8-12 start career typical for today's 'best' horses?"

Here is the pdf: http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com...0Racehorse.pdf

Please read Finley's piece, vote in the poll and share your extended thoughts. I think it's as important a discussion as there is regarding the game currently.

Eclipse award winning article.