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#1
10-26-2009, 03:13 PM
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Defining a great horse
I'd be interested to know the most important common factors that people prefer when defining a great horse.
Rate the following factors as either... very important, important, not that important, or doesn't matter at all. And pick the 3-to-5 which you think are most important. Ability as a 2yo Ability as a 3yo Ability as an older horse Ability as a sprinter Ability as a miler Ability as a router Ability as a dirt horse Ability as a synthetic horse Ability as a turf horse Ability to win major races Ability to beat good horses Ability to run fast figures Ability to win with dominance Ability to stay sound and race often without big time gaps between starts Ability to carry high weight or give weight away to good horses Ability to have success as a stallion or broodmare Ability to be consistant and not go in and out of top form Ability to handle different surfaces Ability to handle a wide range of distances Ability to handle tough trips, bad rides, and unfavorable circumstances Ability to ship and consistantly run near top form away from home circuit Ability to have participated in a lot of major races Ability of the trainer. (for instance ... would you downgrade a horse like Saint Liam because he was 2-for-8 with all failed stakes attempts before getting transferred from a solid trainer to a miracle worker? Or to a more extreme, Would you upgrade the early form of horses like Rachel Alexandra and Rock Hard Ten because they were trained by guys with dismal stats?) Ability of the jockey. Competence of the management. (would you upgrade a horse because he was placed in illogical spots? Or to a greater extreme, would you downgrade a horse because he was placed in clever and calculated spots?) Visual likability. (would you upgrade or downgrade a horse based on flashiness? Flashy type of horses being like an Easy Goer or Arazi. Unflashy types being like a Skip Away .. who was often best when moved prematurely and would grind out steady wins with odd action) 
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#2
10-26-2009, 03:23 PM
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#3
10-26-2009, 03:24 PM
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1. Ability as a dirt horse 2. Ability to beat good horses 3. Ability to run fast figures 4. Ability to be consistant and hold form 5. Ability to handle tough trips, bad rides, and unfavorable circumstances
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#4
10-26-2009, 05:15 PM
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those five....plus add in 'if people compare other horses to you in future, you were a great horse'.
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#5
10-26-2009, 05:19 PM
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See Spectacular Bid. The whole freaking package.
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#6
10-26-2009, 07:45 PM
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Especially now with the # of synthetic surfaces, if a horse demonstrated tremendous ability on turf and synthetic, for example, I could classify the horse as "great" even if it never performed on dirt, or performed poorly in a couple of attempts. Other than that I basically agree. 1. Ability to beat good horses 2. Ability to handle tough trips, bad rides, and unfavorable circumstances 3. Ability to run fast figures 4. Ability to win major races 5. Ability to handle a wide range of distances
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#7
10-26-2009, 07:55 PM
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Look at the record Euro's have had against our best turf horses. A horse like Manila may have struck out with my #1 factor ... but he hit almost all of the important ones out of the ball park .. he's a no-brainer great horse... and look at all the trouble he had getting into the Hall of Fame.
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#8
10-26-2009, 03:26 PM
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Ability as a sprinter
Ability as a miler Ability as a router Ability to win major races Ability to win with dominance Ability to handle different surfaces Ability to handle a wide range of distances For me a great horse really there are few must have the ability to dominate as a youngster & carry through it's carrier not all 2 year olds go on as some are breed to run early & the rest catch up,being able to handle various conditions are a must i reckon & i do have a weak spot for horses with the Ability to handle a wide range of distances as there are very few like that, I reckon we give the word champion to easily & although i get voted out in arguments about older legends like Phar Lap etc Ability to run fast figures is a must for me if a horse from the past dosnt run the times of current great horses how can it be claimed better ?
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#9
10-26-2009, 03:56 PM
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One thing I look for that isn't addressed enough in my opinion is a horse's ability to handle regular racing or the longevity in a career. I do believe sporadic or one off performances can disguise weaknesses, as we touched upon if Arazi had retired after the BC he might have gone down as one of the greats of all time, time and racing are a great indicator in exposing a horse's weaknesses.
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#10
10-26-2009, 04:24 PM
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Arazi's Beyer for his BC Juvenile win was about the same as Jackson Bend's Beyer for his latest Calder win. For him to have gone down as a great horse if he retired at 2... the person defining what a great horse is would have to have these as his top four factors...
Ability as a 2yo Visual likability Ability to handle different surfaces Ability to win with dominance He would also have to have several factors on the list answered with doesn't matter at all. Vindication never was beaten as a 2yo - and won the BC Juvenile with a slightly higher fig than Arazi ... he retired at 2 and he's been pretty much forgotten.
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#11
10-26-2009, 06:08 PM
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I am going to make a list of the great horses I have saw. Not that I have read our herd about, but that I have actually watched. Im 24 now and have been following for about 10 years. Clearly I might miss someone.... Bernardini Point Given Mineshaft Barbaro Rachel Alexandra Azeri Sightseek Zenyatta Curlin Street Sense Medaglia D Oro Candy Ride Midnight Lute
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#12
10-27-2009, 07:33 AM
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#13
10-27-2009, 10:05 AM
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#14
10-27-2009, 10:54 AM
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I don't need to see a lot of races to know what I see a couple of times. For me, I think great horses do one of two things. Either they beat really good horses or they run really fast races. I like horses that do it on more than one surface but so many aren't given the chance to show if they could or not that I don't think it's fair to give horses that were given a chance extra credit. For that same reason, I don't give extra credit to the names of the races the horses run in. That simply has no bearing on their ability. I wouldn't punish Zenyatta for her connections not allowing her to run against the boys. I wouldn't give Rachel extra credit for facing older males in the Woodward when facing 3yos in the Travers would have been the tougher race.
Ability as a 2yo Ability as a 3yo Ability as an older horse I only judge them by when they actually run. I wouldn't downgrade Curlin because he didn't run as a 2yo. My only requirement is that in whatever years they run, they run great. Ability as a sprinter Ability as a miler Ability as a router A lot of people only judge them by how well they do at 10f. I don't think that's the only distance that we run races at. In fact, the majority of races in this country are under 8f. It's my feeling that it's tougher to be dominant over a more inclusive group than it is to be dominant over a select group. There's only 10 horses that can run 10f in any given year. There's 10000 that can run 6f. Whatever you do, whether it be sprints, miles, 16f, grass, dirt, whatever it is, be the best at it. Ability as a dirt horse-important Ability as a synthetic horse-completely 100% not important Ability as a turf horse-important Ability to win major races-not important Ability to beat good horses-extremely important Ability to run fast figures-very important Ability to win with dominance-slightly important Ability to stay sound and race often without big time gaps between starts-not important Ability to carry high weight or give weight away to good horses-important Ability to have success as a stallion or broodmare-completely unimportant Ability to be consistant and not go in and out of top form-very important Ability to handle different surfaces-not important Ability to handle a wide range of distances-not important Ability to handle tough trips, bad rides, and unfavorable circumstances-important Ability to ship and consistantly run near top form away from home circuit-slightly important Ability to have participated in a lot of major races-not important Ability of the trainer.-not important although the example you mentioned makes me reevaluate that opinion some. Ability of the jockey.-completely irrelevant Competence of the management.-usually not important unless they are putting their horse in position to fail, ala Arazi. Visual likability.-not important
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The real horses of the year (1986-2020) Manila, Java Gold, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Go for Wand, In Excess, Paseana, Kotashaan, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alphabet Soup, Formal Gold, Skip Away, Artax, Tiznow, Point Given, Azeri, Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Ghostzapper, Invasor, Curlin, Zenyatta, Zenyatta, Goldikova, Havre de Grace, Wise Dan, Wise Dan, California Chrome, American Pharoah, Arrogate, Gun Runner, Accelerate, Maximum Security, Gamine
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#15
10-27-2009, 10:09 AM
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You missed Tiznow, Invasor and most importantly Ghostzapper who is probably the best horse since Spectacular Bid
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#16
10-27-2009, 02:27 PM
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I agree about Tiznow, and Invasor " I think Bernardini was much better though" Giants Causeway was also great.
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#17
10-30-2009, 12:27 PM
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#18
10-30-2009, 09:34 PM
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The 2nd time they met was in the Dubai World Cup ... Discreet Cat reportedly had all kinds of health problems and was last the whole way.. getting beat like 30 lengths and finishing well behind a Sauadi horse. I think Da Tara would have smacked around the version of DC we saw at age 4.
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#19
10-26-2009, 06:17 PM
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Who have the popular Internet horses been?
Basically all the Fox Hill Farm horses right?
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#20
10-26-2009, 06:35 PM
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Hybrid Mode
