This One's for Phil goes nuts...

[cakes44]

in a first start for Dutrow. Weird. I'm looking forward to see how much he improved in the Beyer department.

[dellinger63]

Last June as a 2 yr old he ran a huge! number (4 TG) and thus I think there was no magic just a better trainer 25% v. 12% getting the colt to perform like he was supposed to. Only other horses in the race that achieved that were Jutisu Jax and You Luckie Mann.

[Kasept]

Funny sidebar to 'Phil'... Horse was bought 3 months ago by Paul Pompa and Gulfstream still had the silks and ownership wrong.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Funny sidebar to 'Phil'... Horse was bought 3 months ago by Paul Pompa and Gulfstream still had the silks and ownership wrong.

He doesn't run in IHEA silks does he? Can't remember Backseat Rhythm's colors but the guy definately has the midas touch.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

He doesn't run in IHEA silks does he? Can't remember Backseat Rhythm's colors but the guy definately has the midas touch.

No. White jacket, green circle with red "P". Very familiar on NY circuit. You'll recognize it the next time you see it.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

He doesn't run in IHEA silks does he? Can't remember Backseat Rhythm's colors but the guy definately has the midas touch.

pompa doesn't = ieah. i know they wanted to buy in on one of his three year olds, and he turned them down.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Danzig

pompa doesn't = ieah. i know they wanted to buy in on one of his three year olds, and he turned them down.

Well Positioned is that sharp 2nd time start winner that drowned an OK looking group. Spoke with Pompa yesterday and he said the horse is doing great.

[Kasept]

Blistering column by Andy Beyer in DRF about work of Dutrow vis a vis the performance of 'Phil'. Indicts other 'supertrainers' as well.. Important read.

Latest supertrainer feat raises suspicion
http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do...9&subs=0&arc=0

Thoroughbred racing has become less a test of horses than it is a competition among trainers. The most successful have been dubbed "supertrainers" because they achieve results almost without precedent. They compile winning percentages that dwarf the records of horsemen enshrined in the Hall of Fame. They acquire horses and transform them in ways that history's greatest trainers never dreamed of. Accordingly, bettors disregard the normal logic of handicapping when they evaluate horses saddled by Rick Dutrow in New York, Bruce Levine or Jason Servis in New Jersey, Marty Wolfson in south Florida, Kirk Ziadie and Jamie Ness at Tampa Bay Downs, Jeff Mullins in California and countless other miracle workers.

[cmorioles]

He has written this basic article a few other times. I'm glad he writes them, and I hope he continues to do so until things change.

[Smooth Operator]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

He has written this basic article a few other times. I'm glad he writes them, and I hope he continues to do so until things change.

Me too



Such distrust has corroded the very foundation of the sport. Honest owners are reluctant to invest in the game when they believe they can't compete with the cheaters. Many bettors have lost enthusiasm because the art of handicapping has become an exercise in guessing who has the best "juice." The public at large is alienated when it suspects that drugs are tainting the sport's greatest events. This is what happened in last year's Triple Crown series, and it could happen again in 2009.


Yeah, you can put me in that group, Andy.


Seeing the re-breaking, pharmacologically-altered freak known as Curlin nose the likely 'roid-free Street Sense in that '07 Preakness was really the last straw for me. Been playing poker ever since.


Seeing the freak get absolutely trounced at the first-ever 'roid-free Breeders' Cup by those two young Euros will always be one of my fondest memories, though...

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by Smooth Operator

Seeing the re-breaking, pharmacologically-altered freak known as Curlin nose the likely 'roid-free Street Sense in that '07 Preakness was really the last straw for me. Been playing poker ever since.


Seeing the freak get absolutely trounced at the first-ever 'roid-free Breeders' Cup by those two young Euros will always be one of my fondest memories, though...

uh-huh. and the surface and fact that Curlin was clearly tailing off at the end of the year had nothing to do with it.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Accordingly, bettors disregard the normal logic of handicapping when they evaluate horses saddled by Rick Dutrow in New York, Bruce Levine or Jason Servis in New Jersey, Marty Wolfson in south Florida, Kirk Ziadie and Jamie Ness at Tampa Bay Downs, Jeff Mullins in California and countless other miracle workers.

There's not a problem then. If everyone knows/assumes these guys are cheating, and adjusts their game accordingly, I don't see why this seems to be at top of the list for handicappers to bitch about.

Why, I wonder, do we continually focus on this issue, rather than others that actual DO have an affect on one's ROI? Like:

1) after the bell betting
2) lack of accurate data (this is the 21st century, right?)
3) availability of free (live) video
4) INCOMPETENT stewards
5) ridiculous TAXATION

I can easily account for a juicer: I just use his horse to cover my ass when I have an opinion in the race. I can't really compensate for the others, however. The powers that be, who, most of us think are idiots or incompetent, must get a kick out of horseplayers' obsessive focus on this lesser issue at the expense of the more important ones.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

There's not a problem then. If everyone knows/assumes these guys are cheating, and adjusts their game accordingly, I don't see why this seems to be at top of the list for handicappers to bitch about.

Why, I wonder, do we continually focus on this issue, rather than others that actual DO have an affect on one's ROI? Like:

1) after the bell betting
2) lack of accurate data (this is the 21st century, right?)
3) availability of free (live) video
4) INCOMPETENT stewards
5) ridiculous TAXATION

I can easily account for a juicer: I just use his horse to cover my ass when I have an opinion in the race. I can't really compensate for the others, however. The powers that be, who, most of us think are idiots or incompetent, must get a kick out of horseplayers' obsessive focus on this lesser issue at the expense of the more important ones.

I agree to an extent, but how do you explain to a potential new bettor that some people cheat, but it is OK, just account for it when you handicap? Guys that have been around a while learn to adapt, but new people looking for a new hobby will probably find something else. It also makes for smaller fields which is not good for bettors either.

Further, we need owners and trainers to compete and make the game what it can be. Clowns like Dutrow drive potential owners/horsemen to other interests.

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

It also makes for smaller fields which is not good for bettors either.

This is debatable. Small fields are not good for bettors looking to make big scores. You know, the once in a while hit; the pick 4 horses in a race and see what happens crowd.

IMO, they're just what the doctor ordered for someone who can consistently pick winners and has strong (and singular) opinions. I've recently discovered GG. Hard to find many races with more than 6 going to the post there. YET, the track is a ****in goldmine.

[pweizer]

I think it is very unfair to include Marty Wolfson on that list.

Paul

Originally Posted by Kasept

Blistering column by Andy Beyer in DRF about work of Dutrow vis a vis the performance of 'Phil'. Indicts other 'supertrainers' as well.. Important read.

Latest supertrainer feat raises suspicion
http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do...9&subs=0&arc=0

Thoroughbred racing has become less a test of horses than it is a competition among trainers. The most successful have been dubbed "supertrainers" because they achieve results almost without precedent. They compile winning percentages that dwarf the records of horsemen enshrined in the Hall of Fame. They acquire horses and transform them in ways that history's greatest trainers never dreamed of. Accordingly, bettors disregard the normal logic of handicapping when they evaluate horses saddled by Rick Dutrow in New York, Bruce Levine or Jason Servis in New Jersey, Marty Wolfson in south Florida, Kirk Ziadie and Jamie Ness at Tampa Bay Downs, Jeff Mullins in California and countless other miracle workers.

[pweizer]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Really? Why? Who has had more dramatic move ups (off very good trainers I might add) than he?

Is that a serious question? You really lump Wolfson with the Dutrow's and Ness' s of the world? The man is a great trainer. He doesn't ever have 45% winners at a meet like the above and that says alot.

Paul

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by pweizer

Is that a serious question? You really lump Wolfson with the Dutrow's and Ness' s of the world? The man is a great trainer. He doesn't ever have 45% winners at a meet like the above and that says alot.

Paul

Yeah, he was just 53-for-131 (40% wins) with a $2.38 ROI with all starters in 2008 at high takeout Calder.

He was a mere 46-for-90 (51% wins) with a $2.96 ROI with all dirt starters at Calder in '08.

But you are right - anyone who takes washed up old claimers from Bill Mott and gets them to draw off in the Breeders Cup Mile should never be grouped with those others.

[MISTERGEE]

hahahahahahah, i laughed my ass off

[VOL JACK]

Originally Posted by pweizer

Is that a serious question? You really lump Wolfson with the Dutrow's and Ness' s of the world? The man is a great trainer. He doesn't ever have 45% winners at a meet like the above and that says alot.

Paul

He did take a 6yo Meisques Approval, who was an Overnight Stake horse for BILL MOTT and turn him into a Breeders Cup Champ. He crushed a good group of horses that day. Had he faced the same group the year before, he wouldve been drowned.

[MISTERGEE]

long range problem is the owners who dont win the 30% of races with these guys will be knocked out of the game and for example in fla we will have a 3 horse stakes field with entries from maybe wesley ward, kirk ziadie and wolfson