Which horses were truly great?

SniperSB23 · #1 08-06-2008, 12:59 PM

I'm already having this debate on another forum and it seems as good a time as any to bring it here. Which horses were truly great? For the purposes of this thread great means they were both brilliant and accomplished and the elite of the elite. Ghostzapper was brilliant but not accomplished enough to fit the definition. Cigar was accomplished but not brilliant enough to fit the definition. Here is who I believe fits the truly great label. Who would you remove or add?

Hindoo (1878)
Kingston (1884)
Salvator (1886)
Colin (1905)
Man o War (1917)
War Admiral (1934)
Count Fleet (1940)
Citation (1945)
Tom Fool (1949)
Native Dancer (1950)
Nashua (1952)
Swaps (1952)
Round Table (1954)
Kelso (1957)
Buckpasser (1963)
Dr Fager (1964)
Damascus (1964)
Secretriat (1970)
Forego (1970)
Seattle Slew (1974)
Affirmed (1975)
Spectacular Bid (1976)

I'm only talking North American based horses and not giving anyone a break cause they are a filly. If their biggest accomplishment is that they beat the boys and are great "for a filly" that doesn't count. All of these horses beat the boys every race and would be otherwordly if they were fillies.

Cannon Shell · #2 08-06-2008, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I'm already having this debate on another forum and it seems as good a time as any to bring it here. Which horses were truly great? For the purposes of this thread great means they were both brilliant and accomplished and the elite of the elite. Ghostzapper was brilliant but not accomplished enough to fit the definition. Cigar was accomplished but not brilliant enough to fit the definition. Here is who I believe fits the truly great label. Who would you remove or add?

Hindoo (1878)
Kingston (1884)
Salvator (1886)
Colin (1905)
Man o War (1917)
War Admiral (1934)
Count Fleet (1940)
Citation (1945)
Tom Fool (1949)
Native Dancer (1950)
Nashua (1952)
Swaps (1952)
Round Table (1954)
Kelso (1957)
Buckpasser (1963)
Dr Fager (1964)
Damascus (1964)
Secretriat (1970)
Forego (1970)
Seattle Slew (1974)
Affirmed (1975)
Spectacular Bid (1976)

I'm only talking North American based horses and not giving anyone a break cause they are a filly. If their biggest accomplishment is that they beat the boys and are great "for a filly" that doesn't count. All of these horses beat the boys every race and would be otherwordly if they were fillies.

I would be hard pressed not to include Cigar, Skip Away, Alysheba, Ferdinand, Manila, Lure, Miesque, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Ladys Secret, Inside information, John Henry, Ruffian, maybe All Along

DogsUp · #3 08-06-2008, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I would be hard pressed not to include Cigar, Skip Away, Alysheba, Ferdinand, Manila, Lure, Miesque, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Ladys Secret, Inside information, John Henry, Ruffian, maybe All Along

What about Northern Dancer is what I meant.

Cannon Shell · #4 08-06-2008, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DogsUp

What about Northern Dancer is what I meant.

Not as a race horse. He was hurt fairly early in his career wasnt he?

SentToStud · #5 08-06-2008, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Not as a race horse. He was hurt fairly early in his career wasnt he?

He bowed out after winning the Queens plate. In a span of 7 races he won the Flamingo, Flor Derby, Blue Grass, KY Derby, Preakness and Queens Plate. Ran 3rd or 4th in the Belmont.

SniperSB23 · #6 08-06-2008, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I would be hard pressed not to include Cigar, Skip Away, Alysheba, Ferdinand, Manila, Lure, Miesque, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Ladys Secret, Inside information, John Henry, Ruffian, maybe All Along

To me having 22 that fit the definition of elite of the elite is already too many, you have to draw the line somewhere. All those horses could certainly be called great without an argument but were they truly elites of the elite on the level that the other horses were?

Antitrust32 · #7 08-06-2008, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

To me having 22 that fit the definition of elite of the elite is already too many, you have to draw the line somewhere. All those horses could certainly be called great without an argument but were they truly elites of the elite on the level that the other horses were?

Miesque, Ladys Secret, Inside information, John Henry, Ruffian, Cigar, were all elites of the elite IMO..

SniperSB23 · #8 08-06-2008, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Miesque, Ladys Secret, Inside information, John Henry, Ruffian, Cigar, were all elites of the elite IMO..

I think Skip Away was faster than Cigar and Skip Away lost too many races for me to consider him in that category. Ruffian was likely on her way but the career was just a little short for me to consider her. I had a tough time even adding Colin with 15 races. John Henry is one I waffled on and certainly has a strong argument to be included. I'm sticking to North American based horses so wouldn't count Miesque.

DogsUp · #9 08-06-2008, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I think Skip Away was faster than Cigar and Skip Away lost too many races for me to consider him in that category. Ruffian was likely on her way but the career was just a little short for me to consider her. I had a tough time even adding Colin with 15 races. John Henry is one I waffled on and certainly has a strong argument to be included. I'm sticking to North American based horses so wouldn't count Miesque.

Do you think you should change your definition based on the style of racing today? If your definition holds then we will never see another elite of the elite because no one races more than 15 times anymore. And your opinion as to why Holy Bull is not on this list?

Antitrust32 · #10 08-06-2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I think Skip Away was faster than Cigar and Skip Away lost too many races for me to consider him in that category. Ruffian was likely on her way but the career was just a little short for me to consider her. I had a tough time even adding Colin with 15 races. John Henry is one I waffled on and certainly has a strong argument to be included. I'm sticking to North American based horses so wouldn't count Miesque.

I dont know how you could include Colin and not Cigar...

I think Unbridled's Song would have been an alltime great had he not been injured his whole career and had a better owner...

Zito still calls him the best he's ever trained.. and he only trained him for one race his 4yo year! I think he beat Appealing Skier and ran 7 furlongs in 1:21.. off of a looooong layoff!

Cannon Shell · #11 08-06-2008, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I think Skip Away was faster than Cigar and Skip Away lost too many races for me to consider him in that category. Ruffian was likely on her way but the career was just a little short for me to consider her. I had a tough time even adding Colin with 15 races. John Henry is one I waffled on and certainly has a strong argument to be included. I'm sticking to North American based horses so wouldn't count Miesque.

Kelso and Forgeo lost a lot of races too

Cannon Shell · #12 08-06-2008, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I think Skip Away was faster than Cigar and Skip Away lost too many races for me to consider him in that category. Ruffian was likely on her way but the career was just a little short for me to consider her. I had a tough time even adding Colin with 15 races. John Henry is one I waffled on and certainly has a strong argument to be included. I'm sticking to North American based horses so wouldn't count Miesque.

Her 2 mile wins were enough for me

10 pnt move up · #13 08-06-2008, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

Miesque, Ladys Secret, Inside information, John Henry, Ruffian, Cigar, were all elites of the elite IMO..

there is no way Inside Information can be on that list and not have Azeri.

Cannon Shell · #14 08-06-2008, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

there is no way Inside Information can be on that list and not have Azeri.

Why? II would have hammered Azeri

Cannon Shell · #15 08-06-2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

To me having 22 that fit the definition of elite of the elite is already too many, you have to draw the line somewhere. All those horses could certainly be called great without an argument but were they truly elites of the elite on the level that the other horses were?

It is hard to say that there have been no great horses since the 70's. Cigar did something extraordinary, Skip Away was a really top horse who could have competed with the best handicap horses of any era, Likewise with Alysheba and fernidand who also had Triple crown success, Manila and Lure were both as good at what they did as any I ever saw, Miesques 2 mile wins were electric, Sunday Silence and easy Goer were as top notch as 3 year olds as there has been and each kept the other from being a triple crown winner, ladys secret was a warrior, Inside information and Personal Ensign were about as good as you can be, filly or not, as was Ruffian, John Henrys record is almost unmatched and All Along was a tremendous turf horse

Antitrust32 · #16 08-06-2008, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

It is hard to say that there have been no great horses since the 70's. Cigar did something extraordinary, Skip Away was a really top horse who could have competed with the best handicap horses of any era, Likewise with Alysheba and fernidand who also had Triple crown success, Manila and Lure were both as good at what they did as any I ever saw, Miesques 2 mile wins were electric, Sunday Silence and easy Goer were as top notch as 3 year olds as there has been and each kept the other from being a triple crown winner, ladys secret was a warrior, Inside information and Personal Ensign were about as good as you can be, filly or not, as was Ruffian, John Henrys record is almost unmatched and All Along was a tremendous turf horse

How about Go For Wand and or/ Bayakoa (sp??)

Cannon Shell · #17 08-06-2008, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

How about Go For Wand and or/ Bayakoa (sp??)

You could easily include them especially if you compare to what we consider great 20 years later

Pedigree Ann · #18 08-09-2008, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

How about Go For Wand and or/ Bayakoa (sp??)

Not to mention Shuvee and Susan's Girl.

RollerDoc · #19 08-06-2008, 01:30 PM

Alydar would be on the bubble of the Top 25. He should be included in this category for not only his excellent racing accomplishments, but breeding resume as well.

Indian Charlie · #20 08-06-2008, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

To me having 22 that fit the definition of elite of the elite is already too many, you have to draw the line somewhere. All those horses could certainly be called great without an argument but were they truly elites of the elite on the level that the other horses were?

Out of millions and millions and millions of horses, you think 22 is too many?

I like Cannon Shell's list except for maybe Cigar.