Rule explanation, thanks

MarkyD · #1 04-17-2008, 12:30 PM

Hi people,

First, read this about 8belles, then I have a question:

First of all, Larry and I agree that she has the talent and proven past performances to compete in the Derby. There are a couple question marks. Number one issue concerns her initial break from the gate. She does not break well and if she got an outside post position, our chance of doing well would be severely compromised. The second issue is her current training. I will rely on Larry to decide how well she is training. He will start galloping her himself today. He will know by getting on her. She has to be training like she is sitting on a huge performance. She has to have a good breeze or two. Larry will take her to Churchill soon and see how well she handles the track. If Larry tells me she likes the track surface and is training forwardly, I have decided I will enter the Oaks on Tuesday and the Derby on Wednesday. I will then have the option, after seeing our post position in the Derby, to run in either race. If we draw a decent post in the Derby, she will race there. If we draw a bad post in our opinion, she will run in the Oaks. This is within the rules and it is not poor sportsmanship. It would be prohibited by the racing officials if they didn't want it to happen. Only a filly can do this. I feel very fair about doing this. Time will tell. Larry has to be behind me 110%. I will not enter her in the Derby unless Larry thinks we have a good chance of winning. That is the whole story on Eight Belles. Anything else that you read contradicting that is not true. It is a terrific position to be in. She is a very talented and beautiful filly.

So what happens if he says no after draw. Does it drop to 19 field, or next in line has option and is stuck with her post?
I have not been following horses long enough to understand.

Thanks.

TheSpyder · #2 04-17-2008, 12:37 PM

I think it would drop to 19 AND you'd have someone really pissed off at you for talking their chance away.

Spyder

cakes44 · #3 04-17-2008, 12:47 PM

You think the connections of Denis of Cork or Tomcito would be pissed? Yeah, me too.

brianwspencer · #4 04-17-2008, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cakes44

You think the connections of Denis of Cork or Tomcito would be pissed? Yeah, me too.

Oh, Warren has already won a Breeders' Cup Classic, he'll survive.

Now the owners of the Beulah nickel claimer via Peru? They might be angry.

Oaklawnfan · #5 04-17-2008, 12:50 PM

It wouldn't be the first (or last) time Mr. Porter operates "outside of the box"

Thunder Gulch · #6 04-17-2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSpyder

I think it would drop to 19 AND you'd have someone really pissed off at you for talking their chance away.

Spyder

I disagree...they had their chance to get Graded earnings the same as the others. It's like the last team out in the NCAA tournament. Win your conference and you're in no matter what. The horses that would be bumped by Eight Belles chose their path and didn't get the job done. It's not like they would have much of a shot anyway, while on paper, this filly ranks up the list.

ateamstupid · #7 04-17-2008, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

I disagree...they had their chance to get Graded earnings the same as the others. It's like the last team out in the NCAA tournament. Win your conference and you're in no matter what. The horses that would be bumped by Eight Belles chose their path and didn't get the job done. It's not like they would have much of a shot anyway, while on paper, this filly ranks up the list.

I'm not saying she doesn't belong in the race, but this cross-entry crap seems pretty unscrupulous. If she doesn't get out of the gate well, she's got a chance of getting screwed no matter what post she breaks from. Pick a race and enter.

TheSpyder · #8 04-17-2008, 01:47 PM

If you owned the horse at 21 and 8 belles beat you only to scratch you wouldn't be pissed?...not at all?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

I disagree...they had their chance to get Graded earnings the same as the others. It's like the last team out in the NCAA tournament. Win your conference and you're in no matter what. The horses that would be bumped by Eight Belles chose their path and didn't get the job done. It's not like they would have much of a shot anyway, while on paper, this filly ranks up the list.

brianwspencer · #9 04-17-2008, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSpyder

If you owned the horse at 21 and 8 belles beat you only to scratch you wouldn't be pissed?...not at all?

I'm all about people being responsible for getting their horses in the gate, and I talked about it here for quite some time last week before the Blue Grass and before some turf horse like Cowboy Cal kept some horses out of the Derby.

I am totally behind anyone with the earnings running if they want to -- but at the same time, THIS will make me angry if they enter and scratch. I think they're two very different things: being kept out by a horse who is arguably less of a contender than your horse and being kept out by a filly, who by nature of her sex, has the opportunity to be cross-entered and then just take whichever looks better. If you're going to take on the boys, take on the boys, but don't keep someone else from doing it just because you "can."

But then again, Porter seems to be a pretty solid d-bag, so I guess I'm not surprised.

-BT- · #10 04-17-2008, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

I disagree...they had their chance to get Graded earnings the same as the others. It's like the last team out in the NCAA tournament. Win your conference and you're in no matter what. The horses that would be bumped by Eight Belles chose their path and didn't get the job done. It's not like they would have much of a shot anyway, while on paper, this filly ranks up the list.

you're just saying that b/c its easier for you to cap 19 rather then 20.

I honestly believe it's a dick move, but a fair move. And its not like this horse is a Rags to Riches type horse, she hasn't dominated every field she faced, but the fact that the field is soo week this year has people taking these types of shots

-bt-

King Glorious · #11 04-17-2008, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

I disagree...they had their chance to get Graded earnings the same as the others. It's like the last team out in the NCAA tournament. Win your conference and you're in no matter what. The horses that would be bumped by Eight Belles chose their path and didn't get the job done. It's not like they would have much of a shot anyway, while on paper, this filly ranks up the list.

Absolutely agree here. Anytime there is a cutoff in anything, the last one out always complains. The NCAA tournament one is a good analogy. They have all season to build a resume. They have a second chance in their conference tournament. Then want to complain when they don't make it. Everyone knows ahead of time what is required. There are a million races to chose from starting as a 2yo to get the earnings they need. If you didn't make it, you have nobody else to blame for that. And honestly, who cares if the 21st or 22nd horse doesn't make it? It's not like she's keeping Big Brown or Colonel John out of the race. The reality is that there are maybe 5-10 horses that belong and the rest don't. I think people are looking at this the wrong way when they say that her entry would be keeping someone else out. It won't. That other horse had every opportunity to earn it's way in and keep it out of Porter's hands but didn't make it.

TheSpyder · #12 04-17-2008, 04:04 PM

No, the point I'm making is if she's in and then drops out because the post does not suite them, I'd be pissed if I could have been in the race if that would not of happened. If you worked our whole life to have a horse and the Derby and that happened, you wouldn't be mad?...please. It's obvious with 20 horses many don't belong but just having a horse in the race is a dream for many.

Spyder

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Absolutely agree here. Anytime there is a cutoff in anything, the last one out always complains. The NCAA tournament one is a good analogy. They have all season to build a resume. They have a second chance in their conference tournament. Then want to complain when they don't make it. Everyone knows ahead of time what is required. There are a million races to chose from starting as a 2yo to get the earnings they need. If you didn't make it, you have nobody else to blame for that. And honestly, who cares if the 21st or 22nd horse doesn't make it? It's not like she's keeping Big Brown or Colonel John out of the race. The reality is that there are maybe 5-10 horses that belong and the rest don't. I think people are looking at this the wrong way when they say that her entry would be keeping someone else out. It won't. That other horse had every opportunity to earn it's way in and keep it out of Porter's hands but didn't make it.

King Glorious · #13 04-17-2008, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSpyder

No, the point I'm making is if she's in and then drops out because the post does not suite them, I'd be pissed if I could have been in the race if that would not of happened. If you worked our whole life to have a horse and the Derby and that happened, you wouldn't be mad?...please. It's obvious with 20 horses many don't belong but just having a horse in the race is a dream for many.

Spyder

I get that but I think that it's wrong to blame them for something that you didn't do and that's earn your way in. You wouldn't be out of the race because she was entered, you would be out because you didn't earn the chance on the track when you had the chance. I'm not saying that if I was the owner of that 21st horse that I wouldn't be upset. I probably would. But in the end, I would hope that I'd realize that I had every opportunity to keep control of the situation and not leave it in the hands of someone else. My old coach used to always teach us to take care of our business and never leave anything in the hands of the referee or the judges because then, it's out of your control.

Thunder Gulch · #14 04-17-2008, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSpyder

No, the point I'm making is if she's in and then drops out because the post does not suite them, I'd be pissed if I could have been in the race if that would not of happened. If you worked our whole life to have a horse and the Derby and that happened, you wouldn't be mad?...please. It's obvious with 20 horses many don't belong but just having a horse in the race is a dream for many.

Spyder

I understand what you are saying, but I still think they had their shot to EARN their way in, which they didn't do. I'd be just as mad at myself for not placing my horse where he could pick up a few more graded bucks to get in (Dennis of Cork).

Cannon Shell · #15 04-17-2008, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Good to see Porter doing things to improve his image in the game.

He needs to improve his wardrobe 1st.

Cannon Shell · #16 04-17-2008, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

You and Steve should lend him one of your fedora's.

I have nothing that matches a candy red sports coat and bow tie...

Cannon Shell · #17 04-17-2008, 01:55 PM

I'm pretty sure a rule change will be coming

Cannon Shell · #18 04-17-2008, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Who does?

A pimp maybe?

Cannon Shell · #19 04-17-2008, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyD

Number one issue concerns her initial break from the gate. She does not break well and if she got an outside post position, our chance of doing well would be severely compromised.

I would think an inside post would be worse if she breaks slow. I cant see her winning if she is buried in 17th place early.

Scav · #20 04-17-2008, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardus

There is no also eligible list, so if she is entered and then withdraws due to a bad post position, there will be 19 horses in the race.

Do you recall a few years ago when Baffert and Pegram scratched a horse -- Danthebluegrassman? -- from the Derby after the post position draw? Some horse was excluded, and his connections were ticked about it.

Wasn't this Rock Hard Ten?