Grass Ranks Thinning Because of Synthetics

[King Glorious]

When they first put this stuff in Kentucky, it was clear that turf horses were doing better than dirt horses on junk tracks. I made a prediction that synthetics would be the end of top level grass racing in America because more and more trainers would opt to give their good grass horses a run on the junk because the races are worth more money generally and have more prestige.

The Santa Anita Hcp will be run soon and two of California's top grass horses, Medici Code and Champs Elysees will be skipping grass races to run here. It's a good thing there are no good dirt mile races at Santa Anita or else, I bet the Kilroe Mile would have suffered too.

[SniperSB23]

I'm expecting Champs Elysees to win all the "dirt" G1's in California this year. I'm going to want to punch out the first person I hear that calls him a great dirt horse because of it. There is absolutely no reason to run on the turf now. The Breeders Cup the next two years is going to be such a farce if the foreigners realize what is going on here. If Go Between can win big races on the cushion crap then imagine what a good European horse could do.

[jwkniska]

It makes the one or two big Euros that will run in the classic a whole lot more viable.

[the_fat_man]

Glass ranks thinning because of CHEAP PURSES at GP and the need by FG and TAM to "save" their turf courses.

Plenty of fine turf horses out there.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

Glass ranks thinning because of CHEAP PURSES at GP and the need by FG and TAM to "save" their turf courses.

Plenty of fine turf horses out there.

Those tracks don't have synthetics though so there aren't other options for them. If Gulfstream was a synthetic you would see Shamdinan and Cosmonaut showing up and probably doing well in the Donn Handicap.

[Bobby Fischer]

Originally Posted by jwkniska

It makes the one or two big Euros that will run in the classic a whole lot more viable.

Originally Posted by Fischer Bobby04-20-2007, 12:23 AM

pedigree could become a factor depending on how the surface turns out.

Last year we had two turf horses in the BC Classic who didn't stand much of a chance. Both out of the sire Danehill. At Hollywood cushion-track, they would have run better races and wouldn't have been automatic tosses.

I don't like any Grade 1 race being run on polytrack. On the bright side the payoffs could be very nice.

a danehill or dansili winning the classic?

[Danzig]

turf racing has always been the red-headed step child of horse racing over here anyway. altho some of us enjoy a good turf race, most think that dirt is the be all, end all....no surprise that an alternative to dirt is thinning the turf ranks more.


but, the big dirt races draw some crossovers every year. had santa anita remained dirt, you may well have had a few turfers make the attempt anyway, just because the race is coming up relatively weak-remember that einstein recently made the not so successful attempt on the main in fla--where there is no synthetic...

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Danzig

turf racing has always been the red-headed step child of horse racing over here anyway. altho some of us enjoy a good turf race, most think that dirt is the be all, end all....no surprise that an alternative to dirt is thinning the turf ranks more.


but, the big dirt races draw some crossovers every year. had santa anita remained dirt, you may well have had a few turfers make the attempt anyway, just because the race is coming up relatively weak-remember that einstein recently made the not so successful attempt on the main in fla--where there is no synthetic...

Right, which is exactly what would have happened to horses like Go Between in the past. On the synthetics though these turf horses are becoming G1 winners on the "dirt" when they wouldn't run a step on real dirt.

[Danzig]

which is why they need to quit pretending we still race on two surfaces.

[pick4]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Right, which is exactly what would have happened to horses like Go Between in the past. On the synthetics though these turf horses are becoming G1 winners on the "dirt" when they wouldn't run a step on real dirt.

I wouldn't use a horse like Go Between to support your opinion. The Sunshine Classic is restricted to only Cal and FLA breds. The pace in the race was 22 3/5, 45, 1:08, 1:33, 1:45 3/5, it fell apart and Go Between won. against a suspect group. He's also a colt who's sire is Point Given and he was pretty good routing on dirt although I agree that the dam side of his pedigree is all turf. Besides Asi Siempre I can't remember another turf horse winning a Grade 1, but she won on Keenelands Polytrack.

I've watched the last three Keeneland meets, Delmar in 07, Hollywood, and Santa Anita and the two synthetic surfaces seem to be completely different. Cushion Track plays more like a real dirt track and Polytrack races look like turf races but in a way they don't. In many Polytrack races they crawl early and the closers still inhale the front runners. In turf races there are many times that horses who set an slow early pace usually hold their postitions from start to finish.

[Linny]

Panty Raid won the G1 Spinster.

Thus far there have not been a ton of Poly G1's but Student Council's Pacific Classic bodes for some strange G1 results, at BTW points out.
The Oak Tree meets major races were pretty formful, but they were pitting most of the same SoCal stakes horses against each other.

[SniperSB23]

In Summation is another that immediately jumps to mind. He was done on the dirt and only useful as a turf sprinter and is suddenly winning G1s on the synthetics. There have been a lot of G2 winners too that will probably win G1s soon enough. Just a week or two back a South American turf filly won a G2. I still don't buy that Nashoba's Key is anymore than a turf horse that is winning G1s on synthetics either.

[pick4]

Originally Posted by Linny

Panty Raid won the G1 Spinster.

Thus far there have not been a ton of Poly G1's but Student Council's Pacific Classic bodes for some strange G1 results, at BTW points out.
The Oak Tree meets major races were pretty formful, but they were pitting most of the same SoCal stakes horses against each other.

That's right I forgot about Panty Raid's win. She ran down Lady Joanne who crushed her in the Alabama. I looked back in my Formy 4 and I have the cards from 10/7 Keeneland. Panty Raid won her debut sprinting on the Spa dirt as a 2 year old. She also beat a weak Grade 2 Black Eyed Susan. Here's an interesting thing to note. Panty Raid was the last horse trained by Todd Pletcher to break his or her maiden in a dirt race at Saratoga. Since her win on August 6, 2006 Pletcher dirt maidens making their first start are 0 for 22. Going back to August 23, 2005 when Carminooch was a debut winner his FTS on Spa dirt are 3 for 49.

[pick4]

The Santa Anita Handicap is a million dollar Grade 1 race. Frankel and Juddmonte have nothing to lose by taking a shot in this race. There are no standouts scheduled to run in the race anyways.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by pick4

The Santa Anita Handicap is a million dollar Grade 1 race. Frankel and Juddmonte have nothing to lose by taking a shot in this race. There are no standouts scheduled to run in the race anyways.

No one is arguing that. In the past though this horse would have never run in the Big Cap cause he isn't a dirt horse. With the synthetics in place there is no point in running in the turf races when you can just run on the synthetics for a lot more money.

[Linny]

How 'bout the idea of Go Between winning the Big Cap?

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Linny

How 'bout the idea of Go Between winning the Big Cap?

I can't actually think of a horse running there that I think would be deserving to win so I don't think I'll be bothered by any outcome.

[letswastemoney]

go Tiago

[pick4]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

No one is arguing that. In the past though this horse would have never run in the Big Cap cause he isn't a dirt horse. With the synthetics in place there is no point in running in the turf races when you can just run on the synthetics for a lot more money.

After reading what I posted I realize my main point was buried at the end. There are no standouts in this race. I agree that the new track most likely played a role in their decision. However since this race lacks a superstar, I think Frankel would have took on a shot even if was on the old dirt track. At least there a full field for a Grade 1 at the classic distance.