Neil Armstrong: Obama is hurting the space effort

[joeydb]

But what the hell would Neil know, right?

http://www.politico.com/click/storie...ing_space.html

[hi_im_god]

i'm not surprised that our astronaut corps supports human space flight.

i'm curious what benefit you see from spending billions to keep a human (as opposed to robotic) presence in space? why should we do this?

as much as you post here about government boondoggles, what do you see being accomplished on the space station? so far as i know, the only "science" is a study of the effect long term exposure to zero gravity has on humans.

we don't need humans in space. robotic probes do the same jobs better and cheaper.

[brianwspencer]

Fine by me.

[ddthetide]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

i'm not surprised that our astronaut corps supports human space flight.

i'm curious what benefit you see from spending billions to keep a human (as opposed to robotic) presence in space? why should we do this?

as much as you post here about government boondoggles, what do you see being accomplished on the space station? so far as i know, the only "science" is a study of the effect long term exposure to zero gravity has on humans.

we don't need humans in space. robotic probes do the same jobs better and cheaper.

i am No big space adventure fan But you would be surprised to see the list of things that are now in common use that have been developed by NASA and/or the military. fabrics, chemicals, food process, etc.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by ddthetide

i am No big space adventure fan But you would be surprised to see the list of things that are now in common use that have been developed by NASA and/or the military. fabrics, chemicals, food process, etc.

so how many billions spent for tang and velcro?

was that a good investment?

is it impossible to imagine freeze dried food being developed without landing people on the moon?

[SOREHOOF]

Laptop? Cell phone? GPS? Satellite T.V.?

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by SOREHOOF

Laptop? Cell phone? GPS? Satellite T.V.?

what do those have to do with manned space flight?

they all exist if we never sent anyone into space.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

so how many billions spent for tang and velcro?

was that a good investment?

is it impossible to imagine freeze dried food being developed without landing people on the moon?

Even if it was just velcro and Tang, which is a ridiculous statement, it would be a better investment than paying billions to let people stay home instead of working, also known as welfare, SSI, or any other equivalent.

Ironically, you would not be able to even post a message to this board without the space program that you are criticizing. The computers we all use simply would not exist, at least not yet.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Even if it was just velcro and Tang, which is a ridiculous statement, it would be a better investment than paying billions to let people stay home instead of working, also known as welfare, SSI, or any other equivalent.

Ironically, you would not be able to even post a message to this board without the space program that you are criticizing. The computers we all use simply would not exist, at least not yet.

except i'm not criticizing the space program. i'm criticizing the manned space program.

and i remain confused by your and sorehoof's comment that having human payload somehow increased the pace of discovery in fields having nothing to do with manned exploration.

instead of changing the subject again, can you explain how these assertions are true?

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

except i'm not criticizing the space program. i'm criticizing the manned space program.

and i remain confused by your and sorehoof's comment that having human payload somehow increased the pace of discovery in fields having nothing to do with manned exploration.

instead of changing the subject again, can you explain how these assertions are true?

The manned space program is more versatile than building specialized probes for every mission. The observations of guys like Alan Shepherd and John Glenn were critical in getting subjective as well as objective feedback for vehicle design.

A man on the moon can observe, "This place is clearly not made up of green cheese." It clearly would be harder and would take longer to build unmanned craft for the same purpose, though unmanned craft would cost less per mission and would be expendable.

Also, much of the advancement that flourished out of the space program came from the drive to miniturize the systems to acceptable weights. The part that drove that weight requirement was the distance to the moon, and the fact that the living and breathing astronauts needed all the systems to sustain them, and the space, maneuverability and redundancy to make sure that they had the highest chance of performing their mission and surviving.

[Nascar1966]

O'Dumbass sure is treating Johnson Space Center in Houston very nicely with his new Space Program. Possibly 7,000 jobs lost at Johnson Space Center in Houston. Maybe it was because Texans didn't want his worthless @ss as president. Are any of these other Space Centers going to be losing jobs or is Johnson Space Center going to be taking the brunt of the layoffs? Im sure he also feels that 7,000 lost jobs will help out the economy and unemployment.
Do us Texans a favor O'Dumbass stay the f out of our state we dont want you here. According to Yahoo.com the O'Dumbass' made 5.5 million last year. Talk about waste and abuse of our taxpaying money. Im sure this 5.5 million doesnt include the money that the First Lady spent on her stuff she doesnt need. Only in America does this stuff happen. Lots of morons buying his worthless books the way it looks.

http://www.khou.com/news/Obama-Ameri...-90958314.html

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100415/...s_obamas_taxes

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Even if it was just velcro and Tang, which is a ridiculous statement, it would be a better investment than paying billions to let people stay home instead of working, also known as welfare, SSI, or any other equivalent.

Ironically, you would not be able to even post a message to this board without the space program that you are criticizing. The computers we all use simply would not exist, at least not yet.

jeez, is anything not about welfare with you people? We're talking about space and it takes you all of two posts to shoehorn welfare into the conversation.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

jeez, is anything not about welfare with you people? We're talking about space and it takes you all of two posts to shoehorn welfare into the conversation.

I didn't mean to take it there, honestly, but the original criticism was that the space program was a waste of money, and that all we got out of it was "Tang and Velcro".

I was merely extending that line of reasoning, that if government expenditure should have "value", then clearly spending a sum of money for something in return is better than getting nothing. One example of getting nothing -- in fact, getting less people to work through subsidies -- is the current implementation of the welfare program.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by joeydb

I didn't mean to take it there, honestly, but the original criticism was that the space program was a waste of money, and that all we got out of it was "Tang and Velcro".

I was merely extending that line of reasoning, that if government expenditure should have "value", then clearly spending a sum of money for something in return is better than getting nothing. One example of getting nothing -- in fact, getting less people to work through subsidies -- is the current implementation of the welfare program.

joey, i'm at work and don't have time to respond in depth right now. i'll be back in 4-5 hours with something.

but in the meantime can you drop the straw man argument about a critcism of the space program in general? or maybe just show me where i wasn't specific about manned missions?

[Nascar1966]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

joey, i'm at work and don't have time to respond in depth right now. i'll be back in 4-5 hours with something.

but in the meantime can you drop the straw man argument about a critcism of the space program in general? or maybe just show me where i wasn't specific about manned missions?

Hope your having a good day at work. I should be going to bed soon to go to work at midnight. Dam these graveyard shifts.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

joey, i'm at work and don't have time to respond in depth right now. i'll be back in 4-5 hours with something.

but in the meantime can you drop the straw man argument about a critcism of the space program in general? or maybe just show me where i wasn't specific about manned missions?

OK - I don't mean to mischaracterize your position - the manned space program then is a waste of money -- that's your position right? The arguments still hold. In fact I did respond in that vein a few posts above.

Probes and robots are great and for some missions, especially to the outer solar system, they are pretty much the only way to go. But sensors on those probes, landers, and unmanned vehicles only measure what they are designed to measure.

As an analogy, think of it this way: you are the custodian or security guard at a facility, and you are patrolling it. Remote sensors and cameras can tell operators if anything is moving, what the temperature is, humidity, etc. But it would take a security guard walking the halls to say, "I smell something -- there might be a gas leak and we'd better call the gas company and fire department."

Only a human can gain information that we are surprised by -- the same information could not anticipate so as to design an adequate unmanned vehicle.

[hi_im_god]

"The observations of guys like Alan Shepherd and John Glenn were critical in getting subjective as well as objective feedback for vehicle design."

vehicle design to be human rated. this is the same as arguing that we must launch chocolate bars into space in order to determine the proper design for the safe return of chocolate bars from their missions in space. it's a circular argument.

"A man on the moon can observe, "This place is clearly not made up of green cheese." It clearly would be harder and would take longer to build unmanned craft for the same purpose, though unmanned craft would cost less per mission and would be expendable."

that part is just wrong. it clearly would be easier and take less time (since you no longer have to worry about a craft being human rated) to get a robotic craft designed to distinguish mineral from cheese. robots extend our ability to make observations. they don't change the quality of those observations. there's nothing an astronaut is going to see on mars that wouldn't be shown just as clearly and much cheaper by a robot.

"Also, much of the advancement that flourished out of the space program came from the drive to miniturize the systems to acceptable weights. The part that drove that weight requirement was the distance to the moon, and the fact that the living and breathing astronauts needed all the systems to sustain them, and the space, maneuverability and redundancy to make sure that they had the highest chance of performing their mission and surviving."

this isn't a bad response. it's essentially true that some of the drive to miniaturize was driven by a human space program. i'd give it maybe 0.01% of the overall credit. the invention of the transistor and later the integrated circuit had nothing to do with manned space flight and i'd say those had far more impact. whatever credit you want to give it you need to weigh it against the enormous ongoing cost of human space flight.

"As an analogy, think of it this way: you are the custodian or security guard at a facility, and you are patrolling it. Remote sensors and cameras can tell operators if anything is moving, what the temperature is, humidity, etc. But it would take a security guard walking the halls to say, "I smell something -- there might be a gas leak and we'd better call the gas company and fire department.""

or an engineer smart enough to build a sensor for methane. and even if you built all that stuff and forgot the methane sensor, it's still cheaper to build another probe and launch it later than pay what it takes to keep a security guard alive on mars.

tl,dr? i don't blame you.

i'll make it short. going to mars will wind up costing near a trillion dollars before it's done. if we're lucky.

to what end?

get over star trek. start investing in real science.

[joeydb]

So we're going to disagree. That's OK.

I liked the chocolate bar logic. Interesting way to look at it.

Is the trillion we'd spend for Mars the same trillion we're throwing down the toilet on the health care mess? Not really asking, just another way of looking at what $1T gets you.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by joeydb

So we're going to disagree. That's OK.

I liked the chocolate bar logic. Interesting way to look at it.

Is the trillion we'd spend for Mars the same trillion we're throwing down the toilet on the health care mess? Not really asking, just another way of looking at what $1T gets you.

i didn't start the thread so i don't think it's asking too much to emphasize ateam's earlier point.

stop derailing your own thread. if you don't like it anymore, stop posting.

if you post, stay on point. it's an author's duty.

i just find it fascinating (picture spock pronouncing that) that a fiscal conservative like yourself linked the article. normally you'd be against government spending billions for little to no apparent benefit.

who'd think a libtard like me would think obama should have gone further to cut wasteful government spending?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

get over star trek. start investing in real science.

Starting in the first grade ....