Our great President

[Antitrust32]

wants to veto a law against hate crimes committed against "gender" or "sexual orientation"

Why would he want to veto that bill??

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/05/...ill/index.html

I love how Mr. Bush looks out for the best interest in "his" country.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

wants to veto a law against hate crimes committed against "gender" or "sexual orientation"

Why would he want to veto that bill??

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/05/...ill/index.html

I love how Mr. Bush looks out for the best interest in "his" country.

I've been following this pretty closely, and even the whole run-up to it was sick. The "family" groups have been lying about what the bill means, twisting transcripts to make it look like an anti-Christian bill and so forth. They've completely made the bill into something it wasn't to scare people into opposing it.

Andrew Sullivan says it best. It's disgusting, and there is no argument for opposing it outside of simply disliking, or hating gays.

[The Bid]

Ist America, if they can be gay, you can dislike them.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Ist America, if they can be gay, you can dislike them.

Yep, and according to the federal government (post-veto), it's still more okay to kill them for being gay than it is to kill an African-American of a Catholic just for being black or Catholic.

It's not about liking them or not.

[The Bid]

I would tend to agree with that. I dont want queer thrown in my face. If someone wants to be gay, they should do it on their own time, in the privacy of their own home. I dont want to explain to a child why 2 men are holding hands in the street.

Im glad he knocked the bill out.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by The Bid

I would tend to agree with that. I dont want queer thrown in my face. If someone wants to be gay, they should do it on their own time, in the privacy of their own home. I dont want to explain to a child why 2 men are holding hands in the street.

Im glad he knocked the bill out.

Well, of course that's your prerogative to feel that way -- but that has nothing at all to do with the bill that was passed in the House yesterday. Our hate crime laws protect subsets of people based on their personal characteristics -- being black, a Muslim, a Christian, a Mexican, you name it -- they are protected from being attacked based on who they are. It doesn't matter if I want Islam "thrown in my face" or not, that's not the point of the law. This law, whether passed or not, will have zero effect on whether you have you explain to a child why two men are holding hands on the street. You'd still have to before the bill, and you'll still have to after the bill.

I haven't heard (from anyone) a good argument about why homosexuals should not be included under federal hate-crime laws.

[The Bid]

Gays arent a race or religion, its a choice. I dont get any special privledge for being straight. What if a group of crazed gays attacked a guy like me, why wouldnt that be a straight hate crime?

[estreetposse]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Well, of course that's your prerogative to feel that way -- but that has nothing at all to do with the bill that was passed in the House yesterday. Our hate crime laws protect subsets of people based on their personal characteristics -- being black, a Muslim, a Christian, a Mexican, you name it -- they are protected from being attacked based on who they are. It doesn't matter if I want Islam "thrown in my face" or not, that's not the point of the law. This law, whether passed or not, will have zero effect on whether you have you explain to a child why two men are holding hands on the street. You'd still have to before the bill, and you'll still have to after the bill.

I haven't heard (from anyone) a good argument about why homosexuals should not be included under federal hate-crime laws.

Why is it more of a crime to hurt or kill someone(gay,black,muslim,etc.) out of hate then it is for sh!ts and giggles(premeditated randomness). Assault or murder(premeditated) should be the same charge no matter the race, religion or creed. Labeling things in our society has gotten way out of control...why do we label anything? To be able to separate and organize as we need just like socks. The more protesting, the more laws that are enacted, the more we feel we aren't being treated fairly = the more our everyday rights are being taken away as a whole society. Keep crying about how people are oppressed, treated unfairly, don't have equal rights and guess what...there won't be any rights to be bitching about cause Big Bro ain't far off from snatching them away. It's time the American people bent over and used their good eyes!!!

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Gays arent a race or religion, its a choice.

Are you kidding me? Whether or not you think homosexuality is a choice is irrelevant. Are you even thinking before you type? You're saying homosexuals choose to be gay, but Christians don't choose to be Christians? Religion is very much a choice, and still protected by these laws. So that argument it inherently flawed and nonsensical.

Originally Posted by The Bid

What if a group of crazed gays attacked a guy like me, why wouldnt that be a straight hate crime?

Does this happen often? No, in fact I'm not sure I've ever heard a story about a crazed group of gays attacking a man for being straight. Using that argument is setting up a worst-case scenario fantasy hypothetical straw man so that it's easier to tear down.

Hate crimes terrorize entire groups of people. When someone assaults a homosexual on the street just for being a homosexual in Chicago, it creates paralyzing fear in all homosexuals in Chicago when they walk on the street afterwards. FBI statistics show that 1 in every 6 hate crimes is motivated by sexuality. So while your straw man argument might seem like a logical conclusion to you, the fact remains that these things are already happening all over this country. And plenty of people yesterday exposed themselves in basically saying, "Yep, it's happening, and we don't care."

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by estreetposse

Why is it more of a crime to hurt or kill someone(gay,black,muslim,etc.) out of hate then it is for sh!ts and giggles(premeditated randomness). Assault or murder(premeditated) should be the same charge no matter the race, religion or creed. Labeling things in our society has gotten way out of control...why do we label anything? To be able to separate and organize as we need just like socks. The more protesting, the more laws that are enacted, the more we feel we aren't being treated fairly = the more our everyday rights are being taken away as a whole society. Keep crying about how people are oppressed, treated unfairly, don't have equal rights and guess what...there won't be any rights to be bitching about cause Big Bro ain't far off from snatching them away. It's time the American people bent over and used their good eyes!!!

Only for this reason: Hate crimes terrorize entire groups of people.

I'm perfectly fine with your assessment that hate crimes shouldn't exist at all. That's a valid argument, and one that I have no problem supporting. Getting rid of them wholly is one thing, but if we're going to keep them and let certain groups have them (religion, races) but not a group that makes up ~16% of all hate crimes, something is very wrong.

[The Bid]

If gays kept being gay to themselves they wouldnt get attacked.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by The Bid

If gays kept being gay to themselves they wouldnt get attacked.

Without really digging into that classy little bit up there, it seems pretty obvious that you haven't read the bill or know anything about other than that it has something to do with gays, so it must be bad.

The bill covers gays and non-gays alike. If someone attacks you (not gay) because they think you are gay (even though you aren't) and they carve the word F-A-G in your stomach, that's still a hate crime. If that were to happen, I'm sure there'd be lines of people standing around saying "If he would have just kept his gayness to himself this wouldn't have happened." That, by the way, is the same awful logic that says that if women would just wear pants and sweatshirts, they wouldn't get raped -- that it's their fault.

Foolish.

[Antitrust32]

Hate crimes based on sexuality happen all the time. When I lived in Tucson, this gay man was beat to death a block from where I lived. Hit in the head like 60 times with a baseball bat for no other reason than he was gay. My ex-gf was beat up by a bunch of frat boys when she was on her was to see me just cause she "looked like a d***". These acts of violence effect the entire community, and terrorize the "gay" community.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of homosexuality, but why wouldnt you want people who are targeted for violence to be protected.

[The Bid]

Brian

Whats wrong with a standard assult charge? Why does someones sexual orientation have to come into play at all.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Brian

Whats wrong with a standard assult charge? Why does someones sexual orientation have to come into play at all.

Because there are other hate crime laws. If you're advocating that we repeal all hate crime laws, that's a different point and one that you're certainly entitled to make.

All you've argued so far is that gays are icky, should never leave the house with their partner, and that if they get killed they deserved it anyway, if I may sum up all your posts with one cogent sentence.

If hate crime laws exist, and they do, then homosexuality should very well be covered. What's wrong with a standard assault charge against a person who kills a Muslim (or someone he or she even thinks is a Muslim) in the street while shouting anti-Muslim racist filth at them? Laws are in place to protect those groups right now, because an attack like that would terrorize the entire Muslim community and not just the victim. If you've never been a part of a group that has been terrorized by a crime like that, you can't understand -- and that's fine, I wish that were the case with me. I think you're lucky if that's never happened to you.

The only real argument that can be made against this bill is that all hate crime laws should be eliminated -- in which case, it's time for everyone who opposed this bill to start calling their Congresspeople to make sure that they get right on that.

[The Bid]

Gays shouldnt be entitled to any special rights, or laws. They should keep their sexual orientation to themselves and there would be a lot less beatings.

I never said gays are icky, I dont want homosexuality forced down my throat. If I wanted to see gay men touch each other Ill go to a Chip N Dale show.

Yes, all hate crimes should be eliminated, and they should elimiate affirmative action while they are at it.

[Antitrust32]

man I wish the shoe was on the other foot for one week. All those ignorant "straights" would have a huge change of opinion.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by The Bid

They should keep their sexual orientation to themselves and there would be a lot less beatings.

I'm glad I have finally been able to meet (albeit, online) a real, live victim-blamer. I'd heard lots about them on certain blogs when people say that women who get raped were asking for it by doing certain things. I had just never really had the distinct pleasure of encountering one on my own.

I personally don't give a **** how anyone feels about how someone lives their lives, it will never be an excuse for hurting them. And this is the second time now that you've indirectly and intentionally excused gay-bashing by blaming it on homosexuals. Of course, advocating gay-bashing is your right, but it's just good to know how people really feel.

Originally Posted by The Bid

Gays shouldnt be entitled to any special rights...Yes, all hate crimes should be eliminated, and they should elimiate affirmative action while they are at it.

These two go together. If gays shouldn't be entitled to "special rights" granted by hate-crime bills, neither should Christians or African-Americans or Muslims or Mexicans.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

man I wish the shoe was on the other foot for one week. All those ignorant "straights" would have a huge change of opinion.

Don't go bunching all straight people in that category...

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

man I wish the shoe was on the other foot for one week. All those ignorant "straights" would have a huge change of opinion.

Hey, don't generalize. That's the fastest way to turn it us vs. them, and there are a hell of a lot of them who don't blame gays for gay-bashing and plenty of them who see the problem with this bill getting vetoed.