Steve Haskin's latest: 'Leave Crown Alone'

[Merlinsky]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...one?source=rss

Here here! Great job as usual, Mr. Haskin. I liked how it wasn't just about addressing Lukas but the rumblings we hear every year there isn't a winner. I hope next time he's on At the Races, we'll get to hear a hearty discussion--not that we don't always, just on this topic I mean.

[sumitas]

Essentially I agree . The distances are right for the races .

[cowgirlintexas]

Way to go Steve!

[Smooth Operator]

The BCC is the thing that needs to change, in my estimation.

Should be 12-furlongs instead of ten


Absurd that we have three-year-olds lugging 126 for 12f in early June while older dirt runners are never asked to compete at such a distance ... and rarely carry that much weight.

[Pedigree Ann]

Quarter horse Wayne is hardly the sort of person I would take advice from about classic-distance racing. He is part of the problem; it was during his time at the top of the training stats that we saw the furlongs shaved from many major races - the Woodward, the Meadowlands Cup, the Monmouth H (whatever they are calling it these days), the Super Derby, the Swaps S, the Strub S - all once 10f stakes races that have been emasculated down to distances that a miler can handle. Why were they shortened? One reason was that 'people' complained and didn't enter their horses; was one of the 'people' named D. Wayne? I wonder.

[King Glorious]

I agree with Lukas 100% here and have felt that way for years.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Quarter horse Wayne is hardly the sort of person I would take advice from about classic-distance racing.

Didn't he win 7 of 8 Triple Crown races between '94-'96 with 5 different horses?

He is part of the problem; it was during his time at the top of the training stats that we saw the furlongs shaved from many major races - the Woodward, the Meadowlands Cup, the Monmouth H (whatever they are calling it these days), the Super Derby, the Swaps S, the Strub S - all once 10f stakes races that have been emasculated down to distances that a miler can handle. Why were they shortened? One reason was that 'people' complained and didn't enter their horses; was one of the 'people' named D. Wayne? I wonder.

Just for the scorekeepers out there:

Lukas won the Strub the last time it was run at 10f, with Victory Speech.

Victory Speech also won the Swaps Stakes, giving Lukas back-to-back winners of that race after Thunder Gulch won the year before. Cat Thief also won it for him, while Grand Slam, Prince Of Thieves, and Corporate Report all placed 2nd.

In the last 28 runnings there have only been 2 renewals of the Woodward run at 10f.

The last 2 times the Meadowlands Cup was run at 10f, Lukas had Slew City Slew in the race. He placed both times. He also won it with Twilight Agenda.

The Iselin hasn't been run at 10f for over 30 years. Lukas has sent Lady's Secret, Gulch, Serena's Song, and Farma Way to the post for that race.

In 2 of the last 3 runnings of the Super Derby at the distance of 10f, Lukas trained the runner-up (AP Arrow, Commendable). He also won it with Editor's Note when it was run at 10f.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Didn't he win 7 of 8 Triple Crown races between '94-'96 with 5 different horses?



Just for the scorekeepers out there:

Lukas won the Strub the last time it was run at 10f, with Victory Speech.

Victory Speech also won the Swaps Stakes, giving Lukas back-to-back winners of that race after Thunder Gulch won the year before. Cat Thief also won it for him, while Grand Slam, Prince Of Thieves, and Corporate Report all placed 2nd.

In the last 28 runnings there have only been 2 renewals of the Woodward run at 10f.

The last 2 times the Meadowlands Cup was run at 10f, Lukas had Slew City Slew in the race. He placed both times. He also won it with Twilight Agenda.

The Iselin hasn't been run at 10f for over 30 years. Lukas has sent Lady's Secret, Gulch, Serena's Song, and Farma Way to the post for that race.

In 2 of the last 3 runnings of the Super Derby at the distance of 10f, Lukas trained the runner-up (AP Arrow, Commendable). He also won it with Editor's Note when it was run at 10f.

Once again distorting facts with truths. I hate this forum. It's so much better when people make stuff up. You had to ruin it. Thanks.

[dalakhani]

I can't believe I actually agree with Dwayne about this. The breed has changed and its time for the sport to change with it especially on the biggest stage.

How relevant is a 12f dirt race for 3 year olds or for that matter any horse? There is no chance that they will ever run it again and a vast majority werent bred to do it anyway so what does it prove?

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

How relevant is a 12f dirt race for 3 year olds or for that matter any horse? There is no chance that they will ever run it again and a vast majority werent bred to do it anyway so what does it prove?

Er...that only the best can do it? Drat, I hate it when that happens! The Mt. Everest analogy is so appropriate. If you want to climb a shorter mountain to make it easier, fine, but don't expect the same accolades for doing it.

If people want to run their horses in shorter races, do it, and maybe, just maybe, we would stop having full fields in the TC races--save them for the horses that can actually get the job done and if nobody enters, you'll get your wish for change. People were climbing over each other to get in the Derby and Preakness with a large number going to the Belmont this year. You can't have your prestigious cake and eat it too. The point is they should be one of the hardest if not the hardest things to do in this sport. We haven't had a TC winner in decades and I say good--if mediocrity is what they want to celebrate, then count me out. You want to be a champion? Run like one.

[letswastemoney]

You wouldn't be able to compare the races to past Triple Crown races.

A lot of the fun would be lost if you changed the distance

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

I can't believe I actually agree with Dwayne about this. The breed has changed and its time for the sport to change with it especially on the biggest stage.

How relevant is a 12f dirt race for 3 year olds or for that matter any horse? There is no chance that they will ever run it again and a vast majority werent bred to do it anyway so what does it prove?

It's a fallacy that the breed has changed. It takes hundreds of years for significant evolutionary movement in a breed. What's changed are the training methods and nature of the financial aspect of breeding/sales/racing.

The training changed because of the value of the animals involved, trainers cautiousness with them due to their value, and ownerships' need for a return on the much greater investment(s) involved. You don't see Neil Howard, John Shirreffs, and Shug McGaughey having trouble developing horses as an example, because with the owners they are associated with, there is no urgency to earn back what's been invested within year one of the owner's horses on the racetrack.

The Belmont and similar classic distance events are relevant because identifying horses that can excel at those distances are harbingers of the traits the breeding side of the game is supposed to be seeking. The great mystery from the people saying the race distances should be shortened, is that if you do, you only serve to further enhance the sprint and middle distance sire types that are exactly the ones alledgedly 'weakening the breed'. A.P. Indy is the predominant sire of this generation. Which two wins of his confirmed his attributes as a future sire? The Belmont and BC Classic.

In the meantime, in the last two sophomore seasons, Smooth Air and Musket Man have demonstrated perfectly that endurance/stamina are completely obtainable from any sprint-pedigreed horse. If you train them old school, long and slow, supposedly fragile 6f horses bred to go short can magically go 8.5-10f. As a result of the methods of old style training by Bennie Stutts and Derek Ryan, those two have succeeded at distances no one thought they could possibly 'get'.

Screwing around with the Triple Crown distances, and spacing, would be a guaranteed road to ruin for the breed for racing.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Er...that only the best can do it? Drat, I hate it when that happens! The Mt. Everest analogy is so appropriate. If you want to climb a shorter mountain to make it easier, fine, but don't expect the same accolades for doing it.
If people want to run their horses in shorter races, do it, and maybe, just maybe, we would stop having full fields in the TC races--save them for the horses that can actually get the job done and if nobody enters, you'll get your wish for change. People were climbing over each other to get in the Derby and Preakness with a large number going to the Belmont this year. You can't have your prestigious cake and eat it too. The point is they should be one of the hardest if not the hardest things to do in this sport. We haven't had a TC winner in decades and I say good--if mediocrity is what they want to celebrate, then count me out. You want to be a champion? Run like one.

[Slewbopper]

I would change one thing. I would make the Belmont 1 1/2 miles on the turf. It certainly would not take away from a TC winner if one of the races was on grass. It would show versatility and probably be just as difficult to win. 1 1/2 on the weeds is the classic distance for that surface. Most people believe the turf is kinder to a horse. Hey, the Canucks do it this way

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Er...that only the best can do it? Drat, I hate it when that happens! The Mt. Everest analogy is so appropriate. If you want to climb a shorter mountain to make it easier, fine, but don't expect the same accolades for doing it.

If people want to run their horses in shorter races, do it, and maybe, just maybe, we would stop having full fields in the TC races--save them for the horses that can actually get the job done and if nobody enters, you'll get your wish for change. People were climbing over each other to get in the Derby and Preakness with a large number going to the Belmont this year. You can't have your prestigious cake and eat it too. The point is they should be one of the hardest if not the hardest things to do in this sport. We haven't had a TC winner in decades and I say good--if mediocrity is what they want to celebrate, then count me out. You want to be a champion? Run like one.

Which brings us to the point...how do we define "best"? How does a horse run like a champion? By staggering an extra couple of furlongs less slow than the other staggering horses? If Rachel Alexandra runs in the belmont in two weeks and can't get the final 2 furlongs, does that suddenly mean that she isnt the best three year old in the country?

In the days when you had multiple races beyond 10f on dirt being run, the idea of a 12f belmont made sense. Now, how many dirt races are there beyond 10f on dirt? How many are run even at 10f these days? Regardless of whether it is a good thing or a bad thing, as steve said the business of horse racing has changed.

[Slewbopper]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

In the days when you had multiple races beyond 10f on dirt being run, the idea of a 12f belmont made sense. Now, how many dirt races are there beyond 10f on dirt? How many are run even at 10f these days? Regardless of whether it is a good thing or a bad thing, as steve said the business of horse racing has changed.

Very true. So when do you say the hell with tradition and change with the times?

The Brooklyn is a race that has gone from G1 at 1 1/2 to G 3 at 1 1/8 and back to a G3? at 1 1/2 since I have followed the sport. What is the purpose of the Brooklyn at that distance? I guess it is a prep for the idiotic new BC race, the Marathon. Some allowance horse will gain black type by winning it. It used to be part of the Handicap Triple Crown along with the Suburban and Met Mile, back in the day when horses carried weight.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Which brings us to the point...how do we define "best"? How does a horse run like a champion? By staggering an extra couple of furlongs less slow than the other staggering horses? If Rachel Alexandra runs in the belmont in two weeks and can't get the final 2 furlongs, does that suddenly mean that she isnt the best three year old in the country?

In the days when you had multiple races beyond 10f on dirt being run, the idea of a 12f belmont made sense. Now, how many dirt races are there beyond 10f on dirt? How many are run even at 10f these days? Regardless of whether it is a good thing or a bad thing, as steve said the business of horse racing has changed.

so, since there aren't many, there shouldn't be any? sorry, i disagree. lukas' contention that all belmont winners are nowhere to be found, that they all end up in a foreign country and none are standing in lexington, couldn't be further from the truth. kind of hard to take anything he says about the belmont very seriously when he makes such ridiculous claims. as for staggering home-yes, some of the horses do, while others do not. the race is called a test-of course some will fail it.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Which brings us to the point...how do we define "best"? How does a horse run like a champion? By staggering an extra couple of furlongs less slow than the other staggering horses? If Rachel Alexandra runs in the belmont in two weeks and can't get the final 2 furlongs, does that suddenly mean that she isnt the best three year old in the country?

In the days when you had multiple races beyond 10f on dirt being run, the idea of a 12f belmont made sense. Now, how many dirt races are there beyond 10f on dirt? How many are run even at 10f these days? Regardless of whether it is a good thing or a bad thing, as steve said the business of horse racing has changed.

I think that is why it makes sense to keep the Triple Crown the way it is. Some not so great horses have staggered home and won some very "big" races, but it will never happen in the Triple Crown because of the make-up of the series. I think this is a very good thing.

Why do you want to enable inferior horses to stand in the ranks of Affirmed?

Personally, if there is never another Triple Crown winner again, I'll be fine with it. I'm sure there will be more than enough thrilling races to make up for it.

As for your question regarding Rachel Alexandra - I don't think many felt less of Smarty Jones after the Belmont.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I think that is why it makes sense to keep the Triple Crown the way it is. Some not so great horses have staggered home and won some very "big" races, but it will never happen in the Triple Crown because of the make-up of the series. I think this is a very good thing.

Why do you want to enable inferior horses to stand in the ranks of Affirmed?

Personally, if there is never another Triple Crown winner again, I'll be fine with it. I'm sure there will be more than enough thrilling races to make up for it.

As for your question regarding Rachel Alexandra - I don't think many felt less of Smarty Jones after the Belmont.

actually, i think he earned more respect from a lot of folks in that defeat than he had in any of his victories.

[dalakhani]

Interesting. Merlinsky said that the belmont is relevant because "only the best can do it" and you guys are telling me a horse that loses that race is still flattered by it. How is that?

Smarty Jones was the best 3 year old of 2004. What does a 12f race have to do with it? If Smarty staggers home a little less slow, does that make him any more of a champion and does the fact that he staggered home as slow as he did make him any less of one? Any meaningful race he had raced in and any meaningful race he would have raced in for the rest of his career would have been 10f at most.

So how was the belmont relevant to his quality as a racehorse? That he could gallantly stagger to the line after running further than his pedigree would suggest that he should? A true test of champions should be a test that a true champion can realistically meet. So I ask...Was smarty jones not a true champion?