Bonds voted to All Star team

[somerfrost]

With a huge surge in the last few days, Barry Bonds overcame almost a 200,000 vote gap to make the NL starting squad...this is only right imo! The game is in SF and this will be the year he breaks the record...glad to see it!

[Nascar1966]

Im not going to watch the game for sure now that Bonds is a starter. He is a disgrace to baseball and the human life form in general. Maybe a AL pitcher will hit him with a pitch and he will be out for the rest of the year.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Nascar1966

Im not going to watch the game for sure now that Bonds is a starter. He is a disgrace to baseball and the human life form in general. Maybe a AL pitcher will hit him with a pitch and he will be out for the rest of the year.

I find your remarks disgraceful...wishing injury to someone is indefensible! Bonds has yet to be charged or even formally accused of wrongdoing...he may end up being the steroid king, or he may not but he will end up the all time home run king, he deserves to be in this game and to deny him would be a disgrace to baseball. People "KNOW" he's guilty...thank god, in this country we depend on facts rather than what folks "KNOW". I think your attitude, that because you don't like someone, they deserve misfortune is at the base of many of society's problems!

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I find your remarks disgraceful...wishing injury to someone is indefensible! Bonds has yet to be charged or even formally accused of wrongdoing...he may end up being the steroid king, or he may not but he will end up the all time home run king, he deserves to be in this game and to deny him would be a disgrace to baseball. People "KNOW" he's guilty...thank god, in this country we depend on facts rather than what folks "KNOW". I think your attitude, that because you don't like someone, they deserve misfortune is at the base of many of society's problems!

Somer: that is Nascars standard emission coming out! Bonds might be cleared but I think that after all is said and done ARod will be the HR King!

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Somer: that is Nascars standard emission coming out! Bonds might be cleared but I think that after all is said and done ARod will be the HR King!

Timm,
Might well be...but I just don't get all the hate, it's a sport for goodness sake! Bonds, like every other person, is innocent until proven guilty and his record speaks for itself...he just hit 751 today, having an excellent season!

[timmgirvan]

I know that Bonds is ego-centric and generally rude, but it's his bat that wiil get him in to HOF!

[mes5107]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

I know that Bonds is ego-centric and generally rude, but it's his bat that wiil get him in to HOF!

Not to mention his speed and glove (514 SB's, 8 Gold Gloves).

[ELA]

I don't wish harm on anyone, however, I do think that Bonds, breaking the record, etc. does not add anything to the game. I think it takes away from the game. That's the way the entire thing lands with me.

Call it a record, and I would say it will go down as one. However, what respect will this record have? What integrity does it have? Not with the few, but with the many. Personally, I don't think one can hang their hat on the fact that Bonds hasn't been formally charged or convicted. While it's true that one is innocent until proven guilty, the fact is there is no actual and formal crime that he can be guilty of as far as I see it. There is no environment or infrastructure in which Bonds can be tried or convicted. You cannot un-ring a bell. Who can bring charges against him? Prosecute and try him? Let's not confuse cause and effect -- and being that there is no law to break, guilt will be absent.

I think all of this is more due to a complete lack of oversight on the part of MLB, and now -- I am sorry to say -- perhaps Congress. I also think there is a complete farce as it relates to the governing body of MLB and the fact that they refuse to enforce any resemblence of rules, regulations, policies, etc. This is all part of the problem -- not part of the solution.

Eric

[timmgirvan]

If the "known" use of amphetemines was overlooked by MLB for decades,and the recent use(10 yrs) of steriods and HGH can't be brought to closure by Mitchells lame investigation,then it's best to enjoy the sport for what it is....cheering for players that do something we can't do.

[King Glorious]

I doubt that anyone is under more scrutiny in sports these days than Barry Bonds. I don't think he could get away with using ANYTHING these days. Yet here he is, into his 40's and STILL with 17 hr's thus far this season. The other day, he even stole another base. I think it's great as well as deserving for him to be on the all-star team and I can't wait till he breaks the record. This is how I look at it. It is alleged that Bonds started with the steroids after watching McGwire and Sosa go crazy in 1998. Through that season, he had hit 411 career homers. He proceeded to hit in the upcoming seasons.......34 (in 102 games due to injury), 49, 73, 46, 45 and 45. So let's say that he was on something during that time and if he hadn't been, he would only have hit 35 per season during that stretch. That 35 per season average, certainly not unrealistic based on what he was doing up until that point, would give him 210 more homers. That would put him at 621. The next season he only played 14 games and only hit five. In a full season, give him another 25. That would put him at 646. He came back to hit 26 last year. That's 672 and he's got 17 this year which would be 689. It's not hard to see how he could be at the 700 mark, give or take a few, without taking anything at all. Now, I know some are wondering if projecting him to hit 35 a season during that six-year stretch might be giving him too much? I don't think so. During that stretch, he went from 35 to 40 years old. How many homers did the other two guys that have hit the 700 mark hit during those same age years?

Aaron:
797 games and 223 home runs, averaging 37.2 per year and hitting one every 3.57 games.

Ruth:
713 games and 198 home runs, averaging 33.0 per year and hitting one every 3.60 games.

So giving Barry 35 a year and 210 total in the six-year stretch after he is alleged to have started the steroid use is not giving him too much. But do people know that between 35 and 40, Ruth went over 40 hr's three times, including hitting 49 one season? Or how about that Aaron did it three times also, including setting his career high with 47 at age 37? Aaron was actually more productive from 35-40 than he had been from 30-34.

All of this is to say that it's very conceivable that Barry could still be right around the 700 mark or maybe even over 725. He probably wouldn't be nearing Aaron's record at this point though but could conceivably have done so with the completion of this year and by playing next. For me, the record is not tainted at all. And one thing that people forget is that he spent quite a few years in Pittsburgh and playing at Candlestick, neither of which were the easiest parks to hit home runs in. The dimensions of the park Barry plays in now have been one of the reasons his numbers have gone way up but nobody looks at that. Nobody recognizes the fact that Ruth was hitting to a right field fence that was under 300 ft away while the fence in Pittsburgh was around 335 ft or so. If Barry could have spent his entire career in Yankee Stadium, he might be around 850 home runs non-steroids and 1000 if he's actually been on them.

[timmgirvan]

KG: good theories.....one of my points being that if steriods were so rampant(and we do know that players used them)then why not the rush to stardom for the regular players? Instead of the Mendoza line at .200, we'd have had the Billy Russell line at .300!

[Danzig]

bonds is a conundrum for sure. there's innocent til proven guilty, and there is the admission from the man himself that he used creams and the like, but 'didn't know' what they contained.

as for the record. it seems every major record is always called into question when there is a chance it has fallen, or will fall. seems that whenever a large-mouth bass is caught that will threaten a very long standing record, there are immediate accusations of weighting the fish. when someone shot a huge buck that might be the new record, immediately people started with accusations. it's the same in this situation.

i'd imagine that when (if?) secretariats records in the derby and belmont fall, you'll have howls of protest--look at when monarchos ran a few years ago for example!


they say records are made to be broken, but sometimes it's not very popular. people tend to shy from change, maybe this has something to do with it. but then, maybe bonds being very unpopular doesn't help. he's hard to cheer for to begin with.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Danzig

bonds is a conundrum for sure. there's innocent til proven guilty, and there is the admission from the man himself that he used creams and the like, but 'didn't know' what they contained.

as for the record. it seems every major record is always called into question when there is a chance it has fallen, or will fall. seems that whenever a large-mouth bass is caught that will threaten a very long standing record, there are immediate accusations of weighting the fish. when someone shot a huge buck that might be the new record, immediately people started with accusations. it's the same in this situation.

i'd imagine that when (if?) secretariats records in the derby and belmont fall, you'll have howls of protest--look at when monarchos ran a few years ago for example!


they say records are made to be broken, but sometimes it's not very popular. people tend to shy from change, maybe this has something to do with it. but then, maybe bonds being very unpopular doesn't help. he's hard to cheer for to begin with.

All good points in the past few posts...bottom line: Bonds would be in the HOF (assuming he has used roids) without them. He is the best player of my lifetime, you can argue the best ever...gold gloves, stolen bases AND power. We may never know the truth...but why is Bonds the one everybody wants to point fingers at? Ruth drank like a fish, Ty Cobb was a racist pig...the HOF isn't for nice guys, it's to honor achievement in the sport.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

All good points in the past few posts...bottom line: Bonds would be in the HOF (assuming he has used roids) without them. He is the best player of my lifetime, you can argue the best ever...gold gloves, stolen bases AND power. We may never know the truth...but why is Bonds the one everybody wants to point fingers at? Ruth drank like a fish, Ty Cobb was a racist pig...the HOF isn't for nice guys, it's to honor achievement in the sport.

obviously the HOF is for on field only, as plenty would be kept out due to off the field antics.
why is bonds getting the attention? because he's the one getting ready to break the record. people tend to put athletes on pedestals, the longer they've been gone, the higher the pedestal. if bonds record stands long enough, i'd imagine the next to break it will get a lot of scrutiny as well. a-rod looks like he may threaten it, he certainly isn't a favorite son.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Danzig

obviously the HOF is for on field only, as plenty would be kept out due to off the field antics.
why is bonds getting the attention? because he's the one getting ready to break the record. people tend to put athletes on pedestals, the longer they've been gone, the higher the pedestal. if bonds record stands long enough, i'd imagine the next to break it will get a lot of scrutiny as well. a-rod looks like he may threaten it, he certainly isn't a favorite son.

No, but over at Yahoo Sports today is an article talking about A-Rod breaking the record and it takes shot after shot at Bonds...the article comes right out and says that baseball will be overjoyed if A-Rod breaks the record. To me it's sad, this should be a special time in baseball...just this year we've had several accomplishments, Biggio's 3000 hits, Sosa's HR's and the best...the Rocket hitting 350 wins. Should be a great time to be a fan and yet...

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

No, but over at Yahoo Sports today is an article talking about A-Rod breaking the record and it takes shot after shot at Bonds...the article comes right out and says that baseball will be overjoyed if A-Rod breaks the record. To me it's sad, this should be a special time in baseball...just this year we've had several accomplishments, Biggio's 3000 hits, Sosa's HR's and the best...the Rocket hitting 350 wins. Should be a great time to be a fan and yet...

yeah, it should be. i agree with that. as for a-rod, i doubt he'd get any real praise, he's not much more liked than bonds.
now ken griffey jr on the other hand....

i tell you, if the media takes a dislike to you, look out.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

KG: good theories.....one of my points being that if steriods were so rampant(and we do know that players used them)then why not the rush to stardom for the regular players? Instead of the Mendoza line at .200, we'd have had the Billy Russell line at .300!

Because if everyone was using them then the best players would still be the best players, no? Most of the minor leaguers that have been suspended for using steroids are pitchers.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

they say records are made to be broken, but sometimes it's not very popular. people tend to shy from change, maybe this has something to do with it. but then, maybe bonds being very unpopular doesn't help. he's hard to cheer for to begin with.

I think this makes it easier for the writers to tee off on him. I'm not passing judgement either way but it is easier to be negative about a bad guy than a good guy.

Just look at the Lance Armstrong situation. There is virtually no chance that he did what he did and was clean since the entire biking world was doping and the fact he was prescribed EPO during his cancer treatment. But he was a sympathetic figure who raises money for cancer. People are certainly more willing to give him a pass than Barry.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

All good points in the past few posts...bottom line: Bonds would be in the HOF (assuming he has used roids) without them. He is the best player of my lifetime, you can argue the best ever...gold gloves, stolen bases AND power. We may never know the truth...but why is Bonds the one everybody wants to point fingers at? Ruth drank like a fish, Ty Cobb was a racist pig...the HOF isn't for nice guys, it's to honor achievement in the sport.

If this makes you a bad guy then half the people on DT are scum

[PeteMugg]

Chuck, you beat me to it, but I was going to mention that Bonds has probably faced a lot of pitchers that are on the juice.

Juice, equipment, stadiums ... it's very difficult to compare one era to another. Aaron had a number to shoot at and so does Barry. I'm not a fan of the guy, but I give Bonds credit he can flat hit the ball.