Here's why 5Dimes is better than Pinnacle

[Dunbar]

The common wisdom here seems to be that Pinnacle is the best place to bet offshore. In actuality, 5Dimes, which pays an extra 10% on winning exotic and win bets, is substantially better in most instances. Here’s why.

Let’s assume you are good enough to break even when you bet at the track. So, when a horse goes off at 4 to 1, you have a 1/5 chance to win your bet.

After 100 races betting on 4-1 shots, you should win 100 * 1/5 = 20 of them. (And you will lose 80 of them.)

Now say you bet $50 on 100 horses that go off at 4 to 1. Where will you end up with more money, Pinnacle or 5Dimes?

At Pinnacle, you are going to break even on your bets, but you will get a 7% rebate. (let’s assume this isn’t New York where the rebate would be just 4%) That is 7% * 100 * $50 = $350. So you will end up with a $350 profit at Pinnacle, even though you are just a breakeven capper.

At 5Dimes, you get an extra 10% on your winning payoffs. A horse that is 4 to 1 will pay $250 on a $50 bet. Each time you win, 5Dimes is going to give you an extra 10% on top of that—an extra $25. As we said above, a breakeven capper will win 20 out of 100 races (at 4-1). So at 5Dimes, you would collect 20 * $25 = $500 extra.

At 5Dimes you end up $500 ahead; at Pinnacle $350 ahead. Still think Pinnacle is better?

You can choose any odds and any bet size, and the result will be the same. You will do better at 5Dimes. And the better you cap, the bigger the edge at 5Dimes. But even a losing capper is better off at 5Dimes, unless the capper is worse than a chimpanzee throwing darts.

FINE PRINT:
There are some other considerations.
Disadvantages to 5Dimes:
1. No bonus or rebate for place and show bets
2. Caps on odds:
Win bets are capped at 110-1 or 50-1, depending on the size of the track. Exactas capped at 165-1 or 150-1, depending on track size. Tris capped at 550-1 or 500-1. see http://5dimes.com/payouts.html for more detailed info.
3. Not all tracks are covered by 10% bonus. The most glaring omission is Oaklawn. (at least 20 tracks ARE covered, however: http://5dimes.com/tracks.html

Disadvantage to Pinnacle:
1. Rebate is just 4% for NY tracks.
2. Bonuses are not as good as 5Dimes' bonuses
You get 20% in free play on your initial deposit at 5Dimes. This is better than Pinnacle’s 10% cash bonus.
If you lose at 5Dimes, you will be able to get another bonus when you re-deposit.

Both books now permit betting very close to post time. Up until recently, this was a problem at 5Dimes; they used to cut off betting a couple of minutes before post.

Bottom line: For most tracks, you are better off making your win, exacta, and trifecta bets at 5Dimes. If you think there’s a chance your exactas could pay more than 150-1 or your trifectas pay more than 500-1, you should bet those at CRIS. That’s right, CRIS, not Pinnacle. But that’s another post.

If any of this isn’t clear, tell me and I’ll try to clarify. I'll also show in another post that even a dart-throwing capper is usually better off at 5Dimes.

--Dunbar

PS--both 5Dimes and CRIS are top-notch sportsbooks, each having an "A" rating from the best industry watchdog, Sportsbookreview.com.

[Scav]

If I put $1,000 on a 3/1, and it pays $8 track odds, I get $4,400 in my account?

You are right, this is a better deal for a better handicapper, that being said, it looks like there fine print, especially the odds cap is confusing and for someone like me, who sends it in, I would be cautious with it at first. I have heard 5Dimes in the same sentence with Pinnacle and Cris so I know they are legit. I was reading the payout structure and it was like "The first $100 is covered by xxxx and then after that it is only these odds?

So in summation, I usually play about $200 win wagers when playing, and I usually don't play a horse for that amount that is about 6 or 7/1, would I get affected by these payout rules?

Scav

[Scav]

Also, is it 10% bonus for TOTAL payout, or just profit on the ticket IE

$1,000 win on 3/1...Get back $4,000 + $400 bonus or $300 bonus?

[randallscott35]

Not a chance. Pinnacle is the standard and you are safe there. Not to mention the low juice they have on everything else you can bet. Nothing wrong with having multiple outs, but just for horses, Pinny is the logical one.

[Scav]

I don't know Randall, the above makes sense....I was leaving alot of money on the table putting all my action through Youbet (got a call from them a week ago asking what happened, told them 7% happened) but this 10% thing from Dimes makes financial sense, if you pick winners....

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Not a chance. Pinnacle is the standard and you are safe there. Not to mention the low juice they have on everything else you can bet. Nothing wrong with having multiple outs, but just for horses, Pinny is the logical one.

Randall, are we talking about horse bets or sports bets? If you want to bet sports, go to Pinnacle--I would agree that it is the best book for sports. But I thought I was talking about horse bets.

5Dimes has been around as long or longer than Pinnacle. 5Dimes's "A" rating at Sportsbookreview.com speaks for itself, if you are an experienced sports bettor. Instead of saying "Pinny is the logical one", how about showing why? I stated my case for 5Dimes pretty thoroughly. Do you see something wrong in my calculations?

You will end up with about 40% more money from bonuses/rebates at 5Dimes than you will at Pinnacle. I don't see how that makes Pinnacle the "logical one".

--Dunbar

[Scav]

Was I right with my calculations or not?

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Scav

Also, is it 10% bonus for TOTAL payout, or just profit on the ticket IE

$1,000 win on 3/1...Get back $4,000 + $400 bonus or $300 bonus?

Scav, that's part of the beauty of it. You get paid the 10% on the total payout. If you bet $1000 on a 3/1 shot and win, the payout will be $4400 at 5Dimes. So you are getting 10% on the payout, but you are getting 13.3% extra (400/3000) on the amount you won. Another way of looking at it is that the 10% bonus has turned your 3-1 into an almost 7-2 payoff. (3.40-1)

To answer your previous question...

Originally Posted by Scav

You are right, this is a better deal for a better handicapper, that being said, it looks like there fine print, especially the odds cap is confusing and for someone like me, who sends it in, I would be cautious with it at first. I have heard 5Dimes in the same sentence with Pinnacle and Cris so I know they are legit. I was reading the payout structure and it was like "The first $100 is covered by xxxx and then after that it is only these odds?

So in summation, I usually play about $200 win wagers when playing, and I usually don't play a horse for that amount that is about 6 or 7/1, would I get affected by these payout rules?

You are not going to be affected by "caps" unless you like to bet on 110-1 shots at the "major" tracks.

The first $100 at major tracks will pay track odds on win bets. Anything over $100 is capped at odds of 110-1 at the "major" tracks.

So, unless you are betting on horses at greater than 110-1 at "major" tracks, then your $200 win bets will get the 10% extra on top of the full track payout.

Remember, though, that it only applies to the "major" tracks on 5Dimes' list.

--Dunbar

[Scav]

Thank you, if I sign up, I will hook you up with a referral..I'll PM you when I do

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by Scav

Thank you, if I sign up, I will hook you up with a referral..I'll PM you when I do

Scav, I just edited the 2nd part of my last post, because I thought I'd made it more complicated than it had to be.

Thanks very much for the referral offer. I'm going to decline--maybe someone else here has an account and can take the referral?

--Dunbar

[Dunbar]

I want to show that you don’t have to be a great or even a good capper to benefit from the 5Dimes bonus. Even a dart-throwing capper would do better with 5Dimes’ 10% bonus than with Pinnacle’s 7% rebate.

Let’s use $50 bets on 4-1 shots, like before. If the track take is 16%, then a 4-1 horse will have 16.8% of the total pool bet on it.*(see below) If we are just dart-throwing cappers, then we should have a 16.8% chance of winning bets on 4-1 horses.

Betting at 5Dimes, we will win 16.8 times in every 100 bets. (forgive the fractional win!). The track payoff on a $50 bet is $250, and we are getting an extra $25 each time we win:
After 100 bets, we have 16.8 * $25 = $420. That’s still better than the $350 we’d get from Pinnacle’s 7% rebate.

A dart thrower will end up with 20% more bonus/rebate money at 5Dimes than at Pinnacle. (assuming both the 10% bonus and the 7% rebate are applicable)

--Dunbar

*Explanation of 16.8% fig:
Say the total win pool is 100,000. Then after taking out the 16% track take, there will be 84,000 left. If a horse goes off at 4-1, that means that 1/5 of the $84,000 has been bet on it. 1/5 of 84,000 is $16,800. And $16,800 is 16.8% of the original 100,000 pool. If we are average bettors, we have a 16.8% chance of winning on 4-1 shots.

[randallscott35]

Dunbar,
I have no problem with your numbers. But I don't simply bet to win all the time. Yes 5 DImes is a A book, but it isn't as rock solid as Pinnacle to me (this can be argued I understand) I bet Sunriver across in the Derby 500WPS. Now with 5 DImes, I get no rebate. With Pinny you get 60 bucks back. Better than nothing, no?

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Dunbar,
I have no problem with your numbers. But I don't simply bet to win all the time. Yes 5 DImes is a A book, but it isn't as rock solid as Pinnacle to me (this can be argued I understand) I bet Sunriver across in the Derby 500WPS. Now with 5 DImes, I get no rebate. With Pinny you get 60 bucks back. Better than nothing, no?

Randall, I'd probably concede that Pinnacle is marginally more solid than 5Dimes. I don't know that for a fact, but they do handle humongous volume. But 5Dimes has earned its "A" rating with many years of fast payouts and good customer service.

If you make a lot of place and show bets, then you have to have an account at Pinnacle. I personally would still make the win bet at 5Dimes. On your Sunriver bet, you collected $20 back from Pinnacle, win or lose on your win bet. If Sunriver had won, you would have collected an extra $350 in your payout at 5Dimes. If you win your bet once every 17 times, you do better with the bonus. I expect you are winning your 6-1 bets much more frequently than once every 17 times!

Let's say you win your 6-1 bets just 12% of the time. (that's about the rate of a dart-thrower) Then you will average $42 extra (12%*350=$42) from 5Dimes compared to the $20 you got from Pinnacle on your win bet. So, any win bet you make at Pinnacle on a Belmont or Aqueduct horse is earning less than 1/2 the longrun bonus money it would earn at 5Dimes. That's a lot to be giving up.

I make very few place and show bets, but when I do, I will make them at Pinnacle. If I had to choose between giving up the rebates on my (few) place and show bets and giving up the bonus on my 5Dimes win bets, I'd keep the 5Dimes account.

But I agree that if you make a lot of place and show bets, AND you have to pick one book, then Pinnacle is your best book.

--Dunbar

[Scav]

I like this guy Randall, articulate and knows how to argue constructively, something that in the past hasn't happens with some people around here.

[Rupert Pupkin]

I believe Dunbar is correct.
If a guy was a break-even player, he would make more at 5Dimes. If a break-even player bet on five different 4-1 shots, he would win 1 out of 5. If he bet this at the track, he would break even. If he bet at Pinnacle, he would have a $35 profit because of the rebates. At 5Dimes, he would have a $50 profit from the 10% bonus.
Now let's say the guy was a losing player and he only wins with 1 out of 6 when he bets on 4-1 shots. The guy betting at Pinnacle would lose a total of $58 if he bet $100 to win on six different 4-1 shots and won 1 out of 6. The guy at 5dimes would only lose a total of $50. So even a fairly big losing player would do better at 5Dimes.
The dead-average capper that loses 16% on his money will do better at 5Dimes over the long run. Even if a guy were a terrible handicapper who loses 20% on his money, I think he would still do slightly better at 5Dimes. I think you would probably have to be the worst handicapper in the world and lose well over 30% on your money for 5Dimes to not be a better bet.

[randallscott35]

Some very fair point and I'm willing to consider doing something with them in the future. I am still so happy with Pinnacle, and since the majority of my action is split between matchups and regular horse wagers, I'd prefer to keep the majority of my bankroll in one place. But your thoughts are duly noted.

[Scav]

The matchup thing is key....I would be interested to know what type of overall action they take on those, I bet it is alot

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Scav

The matchup thing is key....I would be interested to know what type of overall action they take on those, I bet it is alot

DART THROWER???? that would be me....maybe I should change my handle!

[Thunder Gulch]

Both are top notch, but I still prefer Pinnacle, in no small part to the fact that I play sports more than I play horses. Still, have been a customer at both and they are among the five best out there.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Dunbar can correct me if I am wrong but I thought that the limits were very low at 5Dimes when it comes to the 10% bonus. I thought that they only offered it on bets up to $100 or something like that. If that is the case, then a big bettor would want to stick with Pinny.